Question: Chardok named camping policy.

[Goregasmic]

Got in a kerfuffle yesterday in chardok over a named spawn. I wanted some input just to clarify rules as I'm new to chardok and the camping dynamics are different.

I was doing auditor/trustee/wiz as a chanter. Cleared the spawns and was gating/suiciding as they popped up. Gated and dictate was on cooldown so I got a drink irl, jbooted and headed in. Once in someone answered a CC that I apparently missed so I called all 3. Buffed friends at ent and headed down. I came in from behind the GHM building and didn't see wiz spawn up. Must have messed up timers. I wait and I start feeling it should have popped by now. I run forward and I see a shaman killing "my" wiz @ ~50% with a spade in the little cubby. Kinda didn't want him running away with "my" shovel so I dictated wiz while we sorted it out but dictate was about to break and we didn't sort anything so I threw wiz at the farthest mobs I could see and gated (which was a mistake because I realized after gating it would train him if he didn't gate fast enough and that wasn't my goal at all). Headed back down. Killed him and got shovel so someone else doesn't snipe it while we sort it out.

Now shaman was super pissed and there was some arguing. The gist of it being:

His point was that spawn was free when he got there and you can't claim more than one spawn.

My point was that wiz couldn't have been up for that long and if you want to contest I get first pick anyway.

Ultimately I know it wasn't very long but I wasn't sure how long it took before I got back; answered CC at castle entrance, got all the way down and waited 30-60s before figuring someone engaged and then wiz was around 50% so I feel it is possible he engaged around the time I answered CC, possibly after but I'll never know.

Apparently his first reflex was to report me. In the end I half heartedly conceded the shovel, figuring I should take the L in case I was in the wrong, didn't want to get banned for a 6k shovel. Should have been more on top of my game when doing multiple spawns... but upon reviewing the PNP:

the player leaves the zone, dies, or similarly "reloads" [...] Reloading does not include Dictate killing a PH and leaving the zone as a step to camping a mob.

Each player can hold as many camps as they want until another player asks to share. At that point the existing player gets to keep one camp, of their choice.

the player fails to engage the mob(s) at the camp within a "reasonable" amount of time (where "reasonable" is interpreted by the staff member in question for each case; you are strongly encouraged to talk to the camp holder and give them the longest definition of "reasonable amount of time" you can manage)

Chardok nowadays is very laid back and usually no one touches your stuff even if its been up for a fair bit if you're not too greedy. I kinda feel it is a dick move to snipe people's shit this quick, as if everyone did that it would become a warzone. To his defense he just got in zone so I would have done the same but if someone answered CC or came back while I was killing a named I would have handed the item over but that's just me. I know most people do this semi-afk, I realize the stakes are low and it isn't worth beefing over and I wouldn't like people killing my stuff the second I'm not there at spawn.

So what's the elf lawyers take on this? I'm not interested in naming/shaming the guy (if he's wrong) I just want to know who's right to avoid further conflict. I guess the easy answer is "kill shit on pop" but no one really does this it seems.

[bcbrown]

Look at this from the shaman's perspective: He calls CC, gets no response for this camp, starts killing the mob, and at 50% in someone runs in, charms it, trains him, then takes the loot.

1. You may not steal kills.

Kill Stealing is defined as the killing of an NPC for any reason that is already fighting or pursuing another player or group that is prepared to engage that same NPC without that group's specific permission.

You were clearly killstealing since the shaman had already engaged and gotten it down to 50%.

In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off.

You left the zone, were afk long enough to grab a drink, and the mob was up. It was no longer your camp.

10. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to:

- Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).

You charmed his mob, sent it at a far away mob, then gated out. Sure seems like you intentionally trained him.

Kinda didn't want him running away with "my" shovel so I dictated wiz while we sorted it out

This is the moment where you had to choose between escalation and de-escalation. De-escalation would have been saying "hey I was camping that" and waiting until he finished the kill to talk it over. Escalation is charming the mob mid-fight.

I get that Chardok has a relaxed unofficial player agreement, but if you stayed in zone and stayed on top of spawns you wouldn't have ended up in this kerfuffle. If your excuse was "I wasn't in zone when they called for CC" I don't think that's gonna cut it.

[PatChapp]

Answering cc isn't required,but if you aren't in a zone you can't claim a camp. Its always shaman vs enc when I've experienced this in dok,since shaman tend to just afk on one spawn and chapters dictate and train a few.
If he petitioned they would side with him in my experience.

Yes,this means that anyone can jump on one of your nameds whenever they pop,as you gated out and gave up the camp.
You could gate out and sit on one spawn,claiming it,to prevent this

[sajbert]

Even if all three mobs were in a shared area within line of sight you still gated and you are dead wrong.

[loramin]

One can Gate with or without leaving the zone.

If the OP did leave the zone, he clearly lost all his camps the moment he gated. But, if he gated in-zone, there's no rule against walking away from your camps ... as long as you're back when respawn happens (or a "reasonable" amount of time thereafter).

[Skarne]

aye- if you simply place yourself in the shaman's shoes, it's obvious he had done nothing wrong.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at this from the shaman's perspective: He calls CC, gets no response for this camp, starts killing the mob, and at 50% in someone runs in, charms it, trains him, then takes the loot.

Yeah that wasn't lost on me but you get there around when mob was due to pop and someone is killing your mob that's annoying AF.

But zone dynamic is half the time people don't answer CC because everyone is AFK, if not straight up logging between kills, also people fight or suicide stuff and answer later so a not immediate CC answer doesn't mean much I realized. Finding a named and realizing it is claimed is part of the deal. You could make a CC and then kill what isnt claimed but you'll get into fights all the time.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You were clearly killstealing since the shaman had already engaged and gotten it down to 50%.

Between CC answer and the time to get down there on top of not immediately realizing it has been pulled it was at 50%. He couldn't have been engaged for that long. PNP says "longest definition of "reasonable amount of time". I don't feel like it was unreasonable absence but it is up to interpretation.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You left the zone, were afk long enough to grab a drink, and the mob was up. It was no longer your camp.

yeah this is the point where I feel I messed up.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You charmed his mob, sent it at a far away mob, then gated out. Sure seems like you intentionally trained him.

This is the moment where you had to choose between escalation and de-escalation. De-escalation would have been saying "hey I was camping that" and waiting until he finished the kill to talk it over. Escalation is charming the mob mid-fight.

I called it coming down and when I got there I told him I was camping it and I was getting no answer until he gated out. In retrospect I should just have invited him but I took a wrong snap decision.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get that Chardok has a relaxed unofficial player agreement, but if you stayed in zone and stayed on top of spawns you wouldn't have ended up in this kerfuffle. If your excuse was "I wasn't in zone when they called for CC" I don't think that's gonna cut it.

Knowing people gate out all the time due to zone dynamics and it is deemed legal, I don't feel that is a strong argument. I often gate out, jboots immediately and run in to realize I missed a CC.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knowing people gate out all the time due to zone dynamics and it is deemed legal, I don't feel that is a strong argument. I often gate out, jboots immediately and run in to realize I missed a CC.

It's always been legal to gate out of a zone ... after all, why wouldn't it be?

But I've been playing on P99 for over a decade, and in that time the rules have always stated that you lose any camp rights the moment you leave the zone.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Answering cc isn't required,but if you aren't in a zone you can't claim a camp. Its always shaman vs enc when I've experienced this in dok,since shaman tend to just afk on one spawn and chapters dictate and train a few.
If he petitioned they would side with him in my experience.

Yes,this means that anyone can jump on one of your nameds whenever they pop,as you gated out and gave up the camp.
You could gate out and sit on one spawn,claiming it,to prevent this

PNP explicitely states a gate after dictate is not a camp forfeit. I fucked up waiting too long to get back. It was quiet and it was just me and another chanter, figured I wouldn't lose anything if I took an extra minute or two to come back. I forfeited the shovel because I realized I might have taken too long even though he knew I was coming back.

Full pnp section on losing camp:

the player leaves the zone, dies, or similarly "reloads" (eg. Evacuates or Succors ... but not being Call of the Heroed or Gating within zone, as those spells don't trigger "reloads"). Reloading does not include Dictate killing a PH and leaving the zone as a step to camping a mob.

Dictate killing a PH and leaving the zone as a step to camping a mob is basically what chanters do nonstop.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dictate killing a PH and leaving the zone as a step to camping a mob is basically what chanters do nonstop.

So, here's the "fun" thing about P99: there are multiple versions of the rules, and they don't all agree. If you check the one that's linked to from the Starting Zone, ie. https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=325349, you'll see nothing about that.

2. Help understanding what constitutes a 'camp'.

The definitions below are not absolute and Project 1999 Staff will not be defining what constitutes every "camp". All examples blow are just that, examples. Instead, Project 1999 Customer Service Staff will arbitrate spawn disputes on a per-case-basis. We greatly encourage players to find their own resolution to spawn disputes, as the solution provided by the staff will at best be a win-lose situation, and possibly a lose-lose situation. No two decisions, even at the same 'camp', are guaranteed to be the same, as we will take into account multiple factors in making a determination on a 'camp'.

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Please do your best to use courtesy and common sense when interacting with other players in spawn disputes.