The Plight of the Shadow Knight

[Tajin898]

This thread is just my attempt to get feedback from everyone on what the life of a Shadow Knight looks like into Kunark and ultimately Velious.

The word on the street is that SK's have it very well right now, great aggro-holders and what not. But that Warriors begin to take the lead in Kunark and hold it throughout Velious. So, what becomes of SK's (and ultimately Paladins as well, though I'm only concerned about SK's in this thread)?

Are they still sought after as tanks? Can they raid tank? Can they solo? Just looking for overall thoughts on what to expect through the coming 2 expansions.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

[Tallenn]

As far as I know, it is only /disc defensive that makes warriors any better at tanking anything than SKs/Pallys. Knights will always be able to get and hold agro better, and aside from defensive will always be able to take the hits just as well.

[xorbier]

It depends if your talking about grouping or raiding. In my experience warriors were the preferred tank in Kunark and Velious but sk's and paly's did fine in groups. Warriors really shined on raids where they are significantly superior. This is a fact and I would tend to think most would agree. This isn't to say sk's or paly's are bad but higher hit points, higher ac, and defensive abilities are all contributing factors that make warriors better at taking damage. Which class does the most damage is another story but that's not a tanks priority.

Having played a warrior from classic to PoP I will say it's harder for them to keep aggro initially, but this gets easier with better weapons released in Kunark and even easier in Velious where the difference is negligible. I never had issues getting groups and was frequently told I was much easier to heal then SKs or Palys.

If your goal is to be a raid tank you should consider rolling a warrior. If you want the flexibility of tanking and playing a dps role SKs would probably be the better choice. SKs tend to be preferred as a dps role as well.

If you disagree you're a racist.

[President]

Originally Posted by Tallenn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as I know, it is only /disc defensive that makes warriors any better at tanking anything than SKs/Pallys. Knights will always be able to get and hold agro better, and aside from defensive will always be able to take the hits just as well.

Uh warriors take hits much better than SK's and Pallys.

[Skope]

I've had Sks tank on a few raids during kunark/velious and they did very well. Don't think it's "much better," in fact i think the difference has always remained quite slight.

[TheDudeAbides]

In Kunark/Velious it's no contest

Warrior hands down

[LevinJ]

I played an SK in classic through the opening of velious, so I will speak mostly to the Kunark era. SK's in Kunark are pretty similar to how a lvl50 SK is now. Not the ideal raid tank, but not completely incapable. Sufficient for groups, but not a "pure" tank like a Warrior. SKs are much more versatile and arguably bring more to the table in groups than warriors though. SKs hold aggro better, can feign pull, can snare to stop runners, etc. SKs are also capable of soloing efficiently enough. At lvl58, they get the lvl44 Necro pet which isn't too shabby. I was able to fear kite in Skyfire or burning woods pretty effectively which is a nice alternative when no groups are available.

[arblis]

Tanking- warriors should always win. They do, and Discs are how they do.

Groups, burst dmg dealers love hybrid tanks. The added healing from lifetaps and self heals helps enough that shm / druids are fine healing them through almost all of velious. Hybrids typically are better in XP grinding groups, and Warriors in slow camps with a big boss. Xp past 50 might not matter now, but AAs change that forever.

Raids- Warriors will always be center stage. As should be, imho. Remember though, that encounters with adds, pull teams and (for a short while) big HT's matter a ton. Hybrid tanks SHINE on fights that require a rez team, as the expected burn rate of tanks is higher.

Also, gear is what defines classes at this point, in the coming expansions you see much more gear that is diversified in who can use it.

Keep in mind, their are also a few raid encounters and group situations where any tank with a good set of resist gear is the best MT.

[Kainzo]

In classic / kunark and veilous.....

I was in raiding guilds in both expansions (in the guild that awoke the sleeper first world wide - drow.org)
We used Paladins and Shadow Knights as off tanks, nothing more. PoP was the first expansion that we actually started using the hybrid tanks as MT's for fights that used fearless (Inny - PoTime)
However, there is a ton of clearing and a few bosses with multiple adds that need off tanking during the fight. So center stage won't happen in Kunark/Veilous but is a definite in later expansions.

[Reubin]

Originally Posted by Tajin898 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The word on the street is that SK's have it very well right now, great aggro-holders and what not. But that Warriors begin to take the lead in Kunark and hold it throughout Velious. So, what becomes of SK's (and ultimately Paladins as well, though I'm only concerned about SK's in this thread)?

That's pretty much what I remember. In the year after Kunark was released ALL hybrids were whining constantly about how much their classes sucked. Rangers complained they didn't have enough hp/ac to tank or enough DPS to get a DPS slot over a Rogue or a Warrior with higher weapons skills. Shadow Knights complained that they didn't have the defensive skills, HPS, or DPS of a Warrior (and complained Paladins had heals so they would be 2nd most sought after tank). Paladins complained they didn't have the defensive skills, HPS, or DPS of a Warrior (and complained that Shadow Knights had FD and snare so they were great pullers and could hold agro better than any other class so they would be the 2nd most sought after tank). Most of the Bard complaints I heard were more about issues with their songs not working correctly and crappy DPS.

At first, knowing that P99 was only going to go into Velious, I couldn't believe how many Paladins (widely considered a little more worse off than SKs because they couldn't be big races with extra HPs) and Shadow Knights there were on P99. If you went to EQ message boards in 2000 & 2001 you'd remember CONSTANT complaining and whining from the 3 main hybrid classes (no diss to Bards but their mechanics are just way different). There was even a melee rebalancing that went into effect at some point to "fix" some of these issues. I think a lot of this was mis-representation...but the vocal minority who bitched constantly to try to get whatever changes they wanted made had everyone thinking Hybrids were just completely useless for a while (until AAs in Luclin I believe). As a Cleric and a Ranger in classic EQ I can say that, from my point of view, these were almost always false perceptions.

That said, it is different on P99 than it was on live from what I can see. Sure there are lots of "Rangers Suck" comments, but it seems to mostly be jokes (and Rangers most certainly never sucked...though they do get weaker in Kunark). I've never had anyone in a group I'm in say that xxxx class can't join. I'm a Cleric and I'm happy to heal anyone. It may be a little less mana efficient at times...but I did it on live without too much problem and I can certainly do it here where everyone has much better knowledge of the game. I also played a Ranger on live through Velious, so I know that even if your class isn't considered the "best" it's more about 1) how well you KNOW the class, and 2) what kind of person/groupmate you are. If you are cool and know you're class I'll always have room for you.

Try not to be too concerned with whether or not your class is going to be as needed as xxxx class. Obviously people talk about the "holy trinity" of Cleric/Warrior/Enchanter for a reason. Some classes are just a little less interchangeable than others. But if you love playing your Shadow Knight and the Warrior class isn't what you want, then you will always make a better SK than a Warrior. And I'd rather have a hybrid who knows his class than a non-hybrid who sucks at his (or is a jerk for that matter) in my groups any day.