Game Mechanics: Nerfing Insta-Click Hate Items (Classic Evidence)

[Rygar]

As I was reading the patch notes I came across this little gem, patched February 21, 2001:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010221a.html

We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank. Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention at levels above 50.

To me, it is crystal clear that they wanted to make agro management a challenge on the raid scene for tanks. The intention is clear in the above note.

If it was widespread knowledge during Velious that raids were loaded up with Mallets to dump into a raid mob and have everyone engage / heal immediately then it would have been hit with a nerf in my opinion.

I humbly ask that you consider nerfing all agro management clickies for tanks to help bring more balance to the raid scene.

Off the top of my head I can think of Midnight Mallet, Root Nets, Puppet Strings for instant clicks (not sure if Ivandyr's Hoops still generate agro). To a lesser degree there are other items such as the Ball of Yarn thing from Stonebrunt mountains (snare) and Bio Orb (Blinding Luminance), these both have casting times but can be used to generate initial agro. I think there is even an item out there that has charges of Engulfing Darkness but I can't think of the name.

Regardless, the point is if an item is being used as a work around to manage agro, I think a serious look should be given to nerf it.

How can this be done? I'm not exactly sure on how the agro system is coded. If a mob is listed as immune to that particular spell, does it still generate hate? If not (or very minimum hate like 1pt), just make raid mobs unresistable to those types of spells. This would still let the items be used in group situations and even during lesser raids like HoT / Sky / Hate / Fear / Growth.

Possibly could make it so any melee class does not generate more than 1pt of hate for using these items on raid mobs. I say melee and not tanks, because it could still be exploited to hold agro during a riposte discipline or something like that.

A simple solution is to make those items unusable in any boss mob zone (such as Ivandyr Hoop not being usable in VP). Even just preventing them from being used in VP / Western Wastes / ToV / Dragon Necropolis / Plane of Growth / Kael / Skyshrine / Icewell Keep brings back a lot of balance.

Implementing this nerf would most definitely restore a better classic feel to the game, and to some degree would make raiding slightly more challenging. I can imagine more wipes as a result since tank swapping would be more difficult for warriors, some clerics may get wrecked on engage during CHeal chains, and a shaman getting a slow resist will be plastered (even successful slow would cause them to be sacrificed most likely, very classic!).

A lot of naysayers will say, "LOL, not classic" but I think they know this goes against the feel of EQ and takes away from the intended game mechanics. You've already set precedence with the Ivandyr's Hoop nerf as it trivialized raid mobs, and even limited the PBAoE number of targets to bring in line with what systems of the day could handle.

I humbly ask you consider this change.

[Daldaen]

Midnight Mallet, Wooly Silk Spider Net, Slowstone Amber, Puppet Strings, Bladestopper, Braided Coldain Beard, Prayers of Life, Mystic Cloak.

These are the main instant clickies that see use for aggro generation on P99.

Another issue is that things like root and dispells generate too much aggro, and initial aggro hate is too low, allowing a player to tag mobs out of trains with those clickies alone.

One more issue is belly casters. Spells cast from range on a belly caster mob (see most dragons), should generate 0 Hate unless they actually land (see Tashan).

On one hand, vendor recharge is classic and seeing that go away would be very unclassic. On the other hand the widespread use of Mallets / Reapers / Wort pots is really stupid.

Once the timeline is completed I'd be in favor of a Luclin nerf to Reapers to be 30s and SK only and to SoulFire so they are Paladin only. And maybe a nerf to recharging cost on Wort potions so bad guilds don't crutch their way through AE encounters instead of forming groups with shakman/Druid/cleric healers to keep people alive. Mallets I dunno how to handle, probably Ivandyr's Hoop treatment.

Blanket removing recharge makes items like Puppet Strings and Bladestoppers useless. But keeping it in makes them quite valuable and allows you to think outside the box when you have them available to you. Though if you don't remove the rechargability of these top guilds will just rely on them harder and those without cant compete.

It would be very interesting if they could flag the clicky to not generate aggro on raid named mobs though...

[Rygar]

I recall your thread about aggro generation from out of range on belly casters and all that, is most definitely a separate issue but related somewhat in regards to trivializing the challenge of content.


Some of the other points about custom content are probably meant for a different thread, but I'll gladly dream along side you...

For Wort Pots, I was told (haven't confirmed) but that at some point in Luclin or maybe PoP there was a 'buff' or maybe even a 'debuff' given from taking a swig of a wort pot, and you had to let it wear off before taking another drink (couldn't unclick). Definitely warrants a custom content implementation in my opinion, although I think it would sadly kill a big perk of the Alchemy tradeskill. In the end, I think the ends justify the means.

As far as nerfing recharging, I am personally for that, or maybe custom content to be able to recharge such as with the Sky chargeable items. Could allow picking and choosing of 'OP' chargeables.

But specifically with regards to Bladestopper / Puppet Strings, you could make the item 'EXPENDABLE'. As far as I know those flagged items cannot be sold to vendors, but you could still trade them for OT hammers (betting price would probably go up to 10 or 20k for an OT hammer though!), and they could still be used for 'Solo Artist' challenges / tough farms, but won't be as trivial (i.e. you are sacrificing a shit ton of money to try and solo a mob. My hat goes off to this person).

I don't know how fast a Bladestopper is churned out on the server, but my guess is the price will drop and will be only used on top dog mobs. Would support making this No Drop during custom content as well, along with a small casting time.

Reapers / Soulfires class only usable when equipped? YES PLEASE!! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[fash]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

On one hand, vendor recharge is classic and seeing that go away would be very unclassic. On the other hand the widespread use of Mallets / Reapers / Wort pots is really stupid.

Off topic, but fyi on red where there is no vendor recharge, using mallets to hold aggro in raids is still widespread. It's just more expensive.

[Just facts]

is this the bug section or the requests section ???
seems to be alot of requests lately and not bugs...

[Rygar]

Linked to patch notes in OP to show intent of a fix. Also have previously had posts here asking for Kozzalym FTE message and spawn loc change that were implemented.

If Nilbog wants these types of fix requests posted elsewhere I will happily do that, just seems like this has been the place to go.

[Maner]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Linked to patch notes in OP to show intent of a fix. Also have previously had posts here asking for Kozzalym FTE message and spawn loc change that were implemented.

If Nilbog wants these types of fix requests posted elsewhere I will happily do that, just seems like this has been the place to go.

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Maner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

Wow, so they reduce proc rates and hate levels from the proc because it made tanking too easy... And you are saying dumping a full mallet into a raid mob to generate an insane amount of agro doesn't make it easy?

See the forest for the trees my friend.

In the end, tanks will still manage agro, A/A/R will still drop bosses regularly, will just take more discipline. Much like monks need to do note that easy mode sneak us how it should be.

[teija]

Originally Posted by Maner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They don't show intent to fix instant clicks in any way actually... they are specifically talking about weapons procs... this isn't the "prove intent to nerf things they never actually nerfed" forum

I don't always agree with what Maner says but he is right here. The quote in the op specifically refers weapon "procs" not instant clicks. Confirmed classic as fuck, take your custom99 requests elsewhere.

[Rygar]

That feeling... When people just don't get it...

Once again (I'm sure it won't be for the last time), I'm saying that fix shows the intention for the class. They dId NOT want agro management to be trivial. If live had widespread abuse of insta clicks it would have been nerfed.

Funny how no one isn't crying about hoops not being classic these days yet are getting so salty over this.