An Introduction to Rules Lawyering

[mefdinkins]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I'd like to present everyone with an introduction to Rules Lawyering and a common lesson that is used from high school debate classes to legal writing courses in law schools. The lesson is called 'No Vehicles in the Park.' This lesson will demonstrate the challenges facing the staff in making 'definitive rules' and may help you rules lawyer your way into claiming that camp you always dreamed of.

This lesson centers on the 'rule' NO VEHICLES IN THE PARK. The rule seems simple enough. However, while discussing it we will gain a better understanding of judicial decision making and legislative interpretation.

No Vehicles in the Park

The town of Kelethin has established a beautiful park in Greater Fay. The city council wished to preserve some elements of nature, undisturbed by city noise, traffic, pollution, and crowding. It is a place where citizens can go and find grass, trees, flowers, and quiet. In addition, there are playground and picnic areas. At all entrances to the park the following sign has been posted: "No Vehicles in the Park."

Although the law/sign seems clear some disputes have arisen over the interpretation of the law. Please interpret the law in the cases that follow, keeping in mind the letter of the law as well as the intent of the law.

Case 1 - An ambulance has a Crushbone train victim in it and is racing to the nearest cleric. The shortest route is through the park.

Case 2 - Some little gnomes are sick of Mino Hero killing them in Steamfont and want to ride their bikes through the safer GFay playground.

Case 3 - Some retired senior citizen Veterans from the war on Sol B enjoy the park but can only travel through it on motorized scooters.

Case 4 - A druid grounds keeper has been driving through the park in his truck / cherry picker for the last ten years, it allows him to trim the highest reaching trees and keep the park clean.

Case 5 - An enchanter drives his ice cream slash clarity slash crack truck into the parks and parks near some benches to sell crack/ice cream.

Determine if each case is a rule violation or not. Consider the letter of the law and the purpose of the law while making a decision. If the law needs to be changed consider altering the 'rule' and what impact the alteration would have on other cases.

Thanks,
Mef/Snooch

[Estolcles]

Does this mean Unrest is the slums just outside of town?

[slappytwotoes]

Case 1 - Violation in both letter and spirit. Endangers those who walk along the roads especially as there is an expectation created that no vehicles are allowed, emergency or otherwise.

Case 2 - Violation unclear. Does vehicles mean bicycles? Usually not in my personal experience. If so then sign should have a 'no bicycles' symbol beneath it too.

Case 3 - See Case 2, replace bicycles with wheelchairs.

Case 4 - Violates in letter but not spirit. Park maintenance vehicles are necessary in the park and usually exempt in my experience. Staff make sure tohonor the spirit of the law and not spoil the serenity or endanger pedestrians.

Case 5 - A violation in both letter and spirit unless the park has granted him an exemption similar to park maintenance. If so, then see Case 4.

You're welcome for doing your homework for you

[Kagatob]

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Kill the lawyers.

[mefdinkins]

Originally Posted by slappytwotoes [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Case 1 - Violation in both letter and spirit. Endangers those who walk along the roads especially as there is an expectation created that no vehicles are allowed, emergency or otherwise.

Case 2 - Violation unclear. Does vehicles mean bicycles? Usually not in my personal experience. If so then sign should have a 'no bicycles' symbol beneath it too.

Case 3 - See Case 2, replace bicycles with wheelchairs.

Case 4 - Violates in letter but not spirit. Park maintenance vehicles are necessary in the park and usually exempt in my experience. Staff make sure tohonor the spirit of the law and not spoil the serenity or endanger pedestrians.

Case 5 - A violation in both letter and spirit unless the park has granted him an exemption similar to park maintenance. If so, then see Case 4.

You're welcome for doing your homework for you

Case 1 - you wouldn't allow any exceptions? safety vehicles are allowed to speed and go through red lights, why not travel through this park? If you would punish someone for going through to save a life how would you punish them? Fine? jail time?

Case 2 - how would you change the rule so people knew no bicycles? would you change the rule to no 'motorized vehicles?'? then how would the motorized scooter below be allowed?

Case 3 - if the motorized scooter isn't considered a vehicle could people ride Vespas, Segways, or mini bikes?

Case 4 - so this vehicle is allowed? why can't someone w/ a ladder do it? doesn't the vehicle itself constitute an ugly/disturbance?

Case 5 - why can't he sell things off the premises? is it a vehicle or is it a food stand? why is he allowed? are food carts allowed if they have wheels but no engines? why would 4/5 be exceptions? do they need a pass to get an exception? do they need a permit?

[Swish]

Originally Posted by mefdinkins [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I'd like to present everyone with an introduction to Rules Lawyering and a common lesson that is used from high school debate classes to legal writing courses in law schools. The lesson is called 'No Vehicles in the Park.' This lesson will demonstrate the challenges facing the staff in making 'definitive rules' and may help you rules lawyer your way into claiming that camp you always dreamed of.

This lesson centers on the 'rule' NO VEHICLES IN THE PARK. The rule seems simple enough. However, while discussing it we will gain a better understanding of judicial decision making and legislative interpretation.

No Vehicles in the Park

The town of Kelethin has established a beautiful park in Greater Fay. The city council wished to preserve some elements of nature, undisturbed by city noise, traffic, pollution, and crowding. It is a place where citizens can go and find grass, trees, flowers, and quiet. In addition, there are playground and picnic areas. At all entrances to the park the following sign has been posted: "No Vehicles in the Park."

Although the law/sign seems clear some disputes have arisen over the interpretation of the law. Please interpret the law in the cases that follow, keeping in mind the letter of the law as well as the intent of the law.

Case 1 - An ambulance has a Crushbone train victim in it and is racing to the nearest cleric. The shortest route is through the park.

Case 2 - Some little gnomes are sick of Mino Hero killing them in Steamfont and want to ride their bikes through the safer GFay playground.

Case 3 - Some retired senior citizen Veterans from the war on Sol B enjoy the park but can only travel through it on motorized scooters.

Case 4 - A druid grounds keeper has been driving through the park in his truck / cherry picker for the last ten years, it allows him to trim the highest reaching trees and keep the park clean.

Case 5 - An enchanter drives his ice cream slash clarity slash crack truck into the parks and parks near some benches to sell crack/ice cream.

Determine if each case is a rule violation or not. Consider the letter of the law and the purpose of the law while making a decision. If the law needs to be changed consider altering the 'rule' and what impact the alteration would have on other cases.

Thanks,
Mef/Snooch

Too cryptic... what's this crap about bikes/playgrounds/etc? Give us some actual situations in EQ if you're going to try this angle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Kagatob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Kill the lawyers.

RUFIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[myriverse]

No vehicles of any kind for any reason!

1. That ambulance doesn't need access. EMTs get out and hoof it through the park to whatever poor sod is hurt.
2. No bikes! They're just as bad as the motor vehicles.
3. No vehicles for old people or gimped. They don't need parks. Parks are for the young and playful!
4. No maintenance vehicles! Lazy cherry picker can hoof it with a ladder. And you don't need a truck to pick up the garbage.
5. No commercialism in the park! EVER! Violators will be nuked. You too, little Miss Girly Scout.

And everybody else, STFU! I'm trying to listen to the birds.

[Laok]

I would start a petition for city hall to change the sign to read "No unauthorized motor vehicles allowed in the park."

This solves everything.

[mefdinkins]

How do you define 'unauthorized motor vehicles"? Under Case 1-5 which ones would have been allowed?