The Running of the Giants

Hasbinbad · #1 12-19-2009, 07:03 AM

Ok, I think this might do it.

Everything that I said about the other system, except instead of a duel we have a weekly race to clear FG's from a full pop with a single group.

This is something that any guild who wants to raid should be able to do. It's hard, but it's doable.

If we can iron out a timekeeping method, this gives us all of the advantages of the duel system but it has 2 main advantages over it as I see things so far.

1.) It is simple.
The other system does sound like a great idea, but it is very complicated. Already I am looking at spending several hours this weekend drafting some sort of clear document that everyone is going to have to then review and hash out over the next week(s).. A wise person or two said to keep it simple, and the other system seems like a self-replicating bureaucracy nightmare when viewed from a certain point of view. I would still be down for it, but simple is better!

2.) It is PVE.
Yet still fiercely competitive. It would satisfy the killers and the carebears alike. It forces you to work together and develop more intense strategies which you can then implement in a PVE environment free from those pesky twitch reflexes you might not have spent years playing FPS acquiring.

We would have to have witnesses of course, and like I mentioned some sort of trusted or failsafe timekeeping method, but that aside, I think this would rock.

I think similar rules can apply like you can't use the same people twice consecutively? This might be modified to say that one person may be in two consecutive races but after that they must sit - this promotes long term planning and staggering the 'top' players in the lineup. Maybe something like no more than 1 of any given class? Maybe you can have 2 of one class but the other 4 need to be unique? I don't really think there needs to be much other tweaking to the ruleset.

This would allow for some GREAT PVE competition because you would have to plan for not only getting through FG's with one group, but racing through them ASAP!

The greatest thing is that this can also be seen as a built-in 'trial by fire' for new guilds wishing to join the rotation!! If they wipe in their hurry or can't do it within a certain time limit (to be determined, i guess? figure out our slowest times and round up?), then they don't get in that week. Like I said, this is something a raid guild should be able to do. We certainly did it several times around the time that we killed nagafen for the first time. I believe Trans has done it with fewer than 6 (amirite?)?

If there is a lot of rabble roused about the difficulty, we could always modify it to 2 groups, but that just wouldn't be as hard or as fun, and wouldn't really serve as a test for newcomers.

Ideas?

Hasbinbad · #2 12-19-2009, 07:08 AM

..and your guild gets loot for doing this.

..and we get a little more competition going on FG's to practice! Gives us a new reason to do so! Isn't that what we want? New reasons to relive classic content? This way doesn't change the content at all but gives us new ways to play with it!

Ideas?

darkkor · #3 12-19-2009, 07:16 AM

I think a good modification would be that no one can go twice in a kill group until everyone in the guild has gone once. This would allow even the most kickass guild to eventually use some of it's "lower tier" players and thus not able to "hold" a spawn by winning this competition indefinitely. It also wouldn't allow 1 group to grow super solid by doing it over and over and becoming too uber at it. Making sure the entire guild has to go also appeases some peoples feeling about putting the fate of their ability to raid in the hands of only 6 fellow guild members. It also makes sure the competition measures the entire guilds skill and not just it's "best" 6 players.

In the end though, no matter how fun/cool, I think this is more work than is needed for guilds to get raid spawns. I think keeping it classic as possible is the best. This is also a little harder than it seems on paper. Keeping track of who went and making sure it's legit. The timing needs to be legit. There needs to be unbiased witnesses...it's a lot really. Although if a huge majority of both guilds really wanted to do this, say, 1 week out of every month or something, that would be pretty cool. If they wanted to always do it that would be cool too. I just can't see everyone wanting to go through all of this every time, ya know?

Hasbinbad · #4 12-19-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkkor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think a good modification would be that no one can go twice in a kill group until everyone in the guild has gone once.. ..It also makes sure the competition measures the entire guilds skill and not just it's "best" 6 players.

Good points.. I think something in the middle might be best?

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkkor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the end though, no matter how fun/cool, I think this is more work than is needed for guilds to get raid spawns.

FG's don't take very long and we do them anyway.

The timing does need to be legit.
..as far as witnessess.. I think 1 or 2 representatives from the other guilds would be fine.. Just to make sure there was no foul play. Which brings up the idea about seeing how the other guild does things, but the answer to that is always going to be 'yeah, but who can do it better/faster?'

Taluvill · #5 12-19-2009, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I think this might do it.

Everything that I said about the other system, except instead of a duel we have a weekly race to clear FG's from a full pop with a single group.

This is something that any guild who wants to raid should be able to do. It's hard, but it's doable.

If we can iron out a timekeeping method, this gives us all of the advantages of the duel system but it has 2 main advantages over it as I see things so far.

1.) It is simple.
The other system does sound like a great idea, but it is very complicated. Already I am looking at spending several hours this weekend drafting some sort of clear document that everyone is going to have to then review and hash out over the next week(s).. A wise person or two said to keep it simple, and the other system seems like a self-replicating bureaucracy nightmare when viewed from a certain point of view. I would still be down for it, but simple is better!

2.) It is PVE.
Yet still fiercely competitive. It would satisfy the killers and the carebears alike. It forces you to work together and develop more intense strategies which you can then implement in a PVE environment free from those pesky twitch reflexes you might not have spent years playing FPS acquiring.

We would have to have witnesses of course, and like I mentioned some sort of trusted or failsafe timekeeping method, but that aside, I think this would rock.

I think similar rules can apply like you can't use the same people twice consecutively? This might be modified to say that one person may be in two consecutive races but after that they must sit - this promotes long term planning and staggering the 'top' players in the lineup. Maybe something like no more than 1 of any given class? Maybe you can have 2 of one class but the other 4 need to be unique? I don't really think there needs to be much other tweaking to the ruleset.

This would allow for some GREAT PVE competition because you would have to plan for not only getting through FG's with one group, but racing through them ASAP!

The greatest thing is that this can also be seen as a built-in 'trial by fire' for new guilds wishing to join the rotation!! If they wipe in their hurry or can't do it within a certain time limit (to be determined, i guess? figure out our slowest times and round up?), then they don't get in that week. Like I said, this is something a raid guild should be able to do. We certainly did it several times around the time that we killed nagafen for the first time. I believe Trans has done it with fewer than 6 (amirite?)?

If there is a lot of rabble roused about the difficulty, we could always modify it to 2 groups, but that just wouldn't be as hard or as fun, and wouldn't really serve as a test for newcomers.

Ideas?

Love this idea --- Really promotes everything we are going for. My only QQ with this is that this is a great idea to add to a list of games we could do.

I think i just outlined this in another post, but here goes again hehe: (all just examples BTW= P

This FG idea for week one. Transcendance wins, IB loses. Ib picks the next game.

IB picks PvP. We /ran 1-6 and get a 4. 4 man pvp tournament (you have a week to prepare)

IB wins PVP and Transcendence picks a scavenger hunt. (Dont know how this would work, but yeah.

And etc. etc. etc.

Would make things interesting. I think a single game would promote repetitiveness and a single strategy that would dominate over everything (Ex: 4 Rogues, warrior and cleric) and would just be continually utilized over everything.

My 2cents

darkkor · #6 12-19-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good points.. I think something in the middle might be best?

True, it might not be possible for every single person in a guild to partake in this due to schedule or whatever and it would be stupid for one guild to forfeit because the only guy that hasn't gone yet can't log on.

Something like a majority % of the guild must take part + whoever wants to. Then just go through them until everyone has gone then people can start going back for seconds.

The main reason I said everyone at first stems from my personal view on having other people decide whether I get to raid or not. In other methods it's me and my guild, in this method my fate is in the hands of only a few people and not in mine at all.

It's also not a measure of a guilds sum of skill, which is what raiding is, so I think whatever you do to be able to raid should reflect that as well.

Once again, everyone has got to want to do all of this stuff. Most people are going to want to do it the way it was on classic because it's a huge part of the game, racing to spawns. Almost everyone remembers doing it and liked it to a certain extent. But like I said, if everyone really wants to do this stuff, it's definitely a cool idea, not trying to knock it at all, just trying to look at the big picture of the entire raiding community.

Makes me think, you guys got any solid feedback on what % of each guild is actually down for these game type competitions instead of classic racing?

Hasbinbad · #7 12-19-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taluvill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Love this idea --- Really promotes everything we are going for.. ..utilized over everything. My 2cents

I'm really glad you like this idea! It came to me as if in a dream! XD

I read your reply and I do like the idea of a revolving set of games, but that is more rules to write and the point of this was to keep it simple. This simple contest fulfills a lot of different functions at once (raid targets, loot/xp, practice, fun, trial for new adds to the rotation, etc.), win/win imho!

Hasbinbad · #8 12-19-2009, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkkor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

True, it might not be possible for every single person in a guild to partake in this due to schedule or whatever and it would be stupid for one guild to forfeit because the only guy that hasn't gone yet can't log on.

The beauty of FG's is that they spawn every 8 hours. It can be done any spawn before the deadline for the week. We'd have to agree on priority for a guild doing FG's for their race, but FG's are on such farm status by both raiding guilds that this isn't a problem as I forsee it (how many times have FG's been fought over? none?).
EDIT: Also, especially as an up and coming raid guild, FG's are a major target anyway. This is something you need to do anyway to farm loot to be more dragon/planar ready. It can be done on your schedule with a minimum of coordination from the other concerned guilds (1 or 2 witnesses from each involved organization).

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkkor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The main reason I said everyone at first stems from my personal view on having other people decide whether I get to raid or not.

This is a totally valid concern of an up and coming raider, and I think that you should ask around and see if FG's are as hard as you may think. Also, remember that this system is modelled around a duel-for-pick ethic, which means that even if you lose, you still get at least one if not 2 or 3 raid targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkkor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's also not a measure of a guilds sum of skill, which is what raiding is, so I think whatever you do to be able to raid should reflect that as well.

While this is true, it seemed like the major gripe of the involved parties with the duel system was that it was not PVE. This is at least a PVE solution, with many advantages as I see it over the other system, which has been accepted as at least a major contender in any agreement raid guilds might come to.

Hasbinbad · #9 12-19-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which brings up the idea about seeing how the other guild does things, but the answer to that is always going to be 'yeah, but who can do it better/faster?'

Last week's winner has to go first? This allows the others to have a chance to see the strategy and make it more fair? I'm sure IB wouldn't have a problem volunteering to take the lead on this if it's accepted (oh noez, yew ish going to steal mai leet FG strat?!?).

Gildiss Gram · #10 12-19-2009, 08:17 AM

I like how everything you suggest has a rotation in it.