Necro's and Shamans wont get charm as per Rogean.

[Sillyturtle]

He replied to my bug thread.

I am disappointed that they're cherrypicking classic things.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...20#post2983120

[Dolalin]

To be fair to them it is a thorny change with some unanswered mechanics questions of how the resistance/charisma checks would work, and it was very clearly unbalanced at the time.

[Sillyturtle]

EDIT:Removed because I was heated.

I will say that balance doesn't and shouldnt' come into it, considering all the other changes that have been made and Balance has never been a consideration from all appearances. It was in, and should be put in. We have stupid things like 4 mob limit just because it existed.


I hope that this decision is reverted, in time for necro's to use it before the patch that it gets removed comes around.

[nilbog]

Due to the finite time between the initial bug report about this issue and the release date of the Green server, I do not feel it is appropriate to allow charm for classes without fully reviewing the potential repercussions.

This may or may not change in the future.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Due to the finite time between the initial bug report about this issue and the release date of the Green server, I do not feel it is appropriate to allow charm for classes without fully reviewing the potential repercussions.

This may or may not change in the future.

What happened to "I'm making it classic damn it and I don't care if no one plays here as a result?" We want that Nilbog back [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get both Paineel and Infected Paw, as they would require tons of work, but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

And for what it's worth I'm not even planning to play a Shaman or Necromancer (although my plans do keep changing ...)

I just want to see this because, classic!

EDIT

I do always try to remember that devs have to consider lots of stuff we don't. So while I 100% think that Charm should already be repercussion-less (ie. at least in classic terms, which is all anyone should care about), especially when Enchanters have been testing it on Blue for a decade ... when I say that I'm thinking about PCs.

However, I realize the NPCs are probably the problem. We already have unclassic NPC spells here (which I mentioned in the mega thread and was basically told "we don't have the evidence to fix this"), and if we can't fix that in time for Green, throwing (potentially two levels higher than they're supposed to be) Charm spells on Shaman/Necro NPCs, when those NPCs have never been tested with them on any server, really could have some serious bad effects.

If it truly isn't possible to make this classic, all I can say is that this (and hopefully a general NPC spell fix) belongs at the very least on Green 2.0. It really won't be classic EverQuest until NPC casters are casting what they cast in '99.

[skorge]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happened to "I'm making it classic damn it and I don't care if no one plays here as a result?" We want that Nilbog back [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get both Paineel and Infected Paw, as they would require tons of work, but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

And for what it's worth I'm not even planning to play a Shaman or Necromancer (although my plans do keep changing ...)

I just want to see this because, classic!

EDIT

I do always try to remember that devs have to consider lots of stuff we don't. So while I 100% think that Charm should already be repercussion-less (ie. at least in classic terms, which is all anyone should care about), especially when Enchanters have been testing it on Blue for a decade ... when I say that I'm thinking about PCs.

However, I realize the NPCs are probably the problem. We already have unclassic NPC spells here (which I mentioned in the mega thread and was basically told "we don't have the evidence to fix this"), and if we can't fix that in time for Green, throwing (potentially two levels higher than they're supposed to be) Charm spells on Shaman/Necro NPCs, when those NPCs have never been tested with them on any server, really could have some serious bad effects.

If it truly isn't possible to make this classic, all I can say is that this (and hopefully a general NPC spell fix) belongs at the very least on Green 2.0. It really won't be classic EverQuest until NPC casters are casting what they cast in '99.

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed. In real classic nobody knew they were going to be removed so the camp was always open. That would be impossible to recreate. But something like this is doable by simply not allowing it, lol.

If we had charm at launch imagine all the neckbeards taking advantage of it just because they know about it now...would be a way different launch than real '99.

I'm not trying to justify it or anything but at the same time this decision does not bother me. I just hope they don't start pets out like they are today like they did on Blue/Red launch.

[this user was banned]

Originally Posted by skorge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed. In real classic nobody knew they were going to be removed so the camp was always open. That would be impossible to recreate. But something like this is doable by simply not allowing it, lol..

By this logic alone we should not have item recharging.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

Why exactly, are you under this impression?

Besides that misinformation, as was already stated, do you or anyone else know or have any proof of how the Charm worked and was affected by stats or mob levels? Or any other required information so that an accurate version of this spell that would be forgotten in a couple of months could be enabled? Do you have the required data and files to implement the item tooltip info for the launch version? Do you know which NPCs sold it and which ones it would need to be removed from afterwards?

Shit's never just "flipping a switch."

Getting off topic, but this is one of the reasons I found it pretty odd that Beta started less than 2 weeks from launch. I was hoping that most of this stuff had already been figured out when Blue was new. But now I'm seeing bug reports of weird stuff like certain race/class combos not spawning new chars with guild notes, which makes me ponder what else will be found wrong in this MASSIVE world.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by skorge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed.

Right, but we don't remove manastones here: we keep it classic, even though the classic devs clearly felt manastones were a mistake which never should have been added. And virtually every other decision R&N has ever made regarding "classic environment" vs. "classic mechanics" went with classic mechanics, even if it makes things "worse": this is a "worts and all" server [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium breaks down the exceptions to that, but they amount to ZEMs, boat direction, and not allowing the SG glitch (and a bunch of stuff out of R&N's control).

Everything else they make work like it did in 1999-2001. So making any decision which doesn't result in things working "as they did in 1999" is very unusual here (again, unless it's out of the staff's control).

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why exactly, are you under this impression?

Besides that misinformation, as was already stated, do you or anyone else know or have any proof of how the Charm worked and was affected by stats or mob levels? Or any other required information so that an accurate version of this spell that would be forgotten in a couple of months could be enabled? Do you have the required data and files to implement the item tooltip info for the launch version? Do you know which NPCs sold it and which ones it would need to be removed from afterwards?

Shit's never just "flipping a switch."

We've had Charm for ten years here: It is not a new mechanic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No new spell files or anything else should be needed ... except, as you noted, maybe adding a few spells to a few vendors (and even forcing Shaman/Necros buy from Enchanter vendors would still be more classic than not having it at all).

As for knowing how it works, classic researchers have presented lots of evidence. So any questions about "what's different for Necros/Shaman" likely is known, and if not the staff can make a best guess (as they've done for many things they don't have evidence for).

Compared to (say) moving all of the essential mobs out Paineel, it is, basically, flipping a switch (although I'll grant we're not literally talking about a single boolean value). I would be amazed if that part was what was holding it up.

I really suspect the issue is NPC-related. For instance, I don't know the code at all, but say they give Necromancer NPCs +100 Charisma behind the scenes (to make some other spell they cast have the right effect). That might have worked fine previously, but when Necros start charming it might make that charm unclassically irresistible.

Whatever the issue is, the staff/researchers have a 10-year history of making so much more happen than just adding a few spells to a few classes, which is why I doubt it's just a technical problem. And that leads me to ...

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Getting off topic, but this is one of the reasons I found it pretty odd that Beta started less than 2 weeks from launch. I was hoping that most of this stuff had already been figured out when Blue was new. But now I'm seeing bug reports of weird stuff like certain race/class combos not spawning new chars with guild notes, which makes me ponder what else will be found wrong in this MASSIVE world.

Obviously when they started the project they didn't have ten years of experience doing it. Now that they're circling back to their earliest work, with that experience, they're finding some of it needs a little shoring up. But even so, the vast majority of classic content has already been well-tested on Blue.

[Sillyturtle]

Thank you Loramin for posting more eloquently than me on this subject.

I would say that st the very least the Necro and Shaman player ability should be added. If the NOC component is what’s making things hard. En leave that for a green 2.0. This is an entire facet of Two classes that needs to be included to support and back up every claim of “Classic all the way and damn the rest” that nilbog and Rogean have been saying for years.

I truly hope nilbog finds a way to implement it before launch.