Game Mechanics: Spell Aggro

[Gorroth]

Several spells have their aggro value way too high, making some aspects of playing on P99 very frustrating.


Lucy:

I've tried looking up spell info on Lucy but I couldn't make much sense out of the raw data. Only the Tash line is clearly listed as having bonus aggro.

Base# contains value related to the spell type, with values sometimes exactly corresponding to the spell description (e.g. concussion), other times it seems to present the minimum values accepted (e.g. malo, scent of darkness: min value for mitigation?) . Other times, it simply makes no sense root: -10000?)

Max1-11 seems to pertain to the max value for any attribute(s) of a given spell.

Other than that, I'm pretty much at loss, disregarding the obvious labels (e.g. manacost, duration, bonushate, hateamount, etc.).

I guess some values are directly related to the "category" and thus, use a formula that Lucy doesn't show. Also, there might be global contingencies related to aggro that also remain hidden (e.g. player_[level#] does X action = Y aggro generated).


Castersrealm:

Couldn't find anything in the comments besides the obvious (e.g. "Tash creates a lot of aggro!").


Known Affected Spells

Right now, I'm pretty much at loss when it comes to checking up how certain spells behaved so I'll have to rely on my past experiences and compare them to what I'm currently experiencing on P99.

I've played both a mage and shaman during classic and raided content from the planes (PoH/PoF) up to NToV. Having debuffed thousands of mobs, I dare say I have a pretty good recollection of how some debuffs behaved on live during the classic period.

Root Line:
Root was a neutral debuff, creating little aggro (very different from the snare line).

On P99, root creates way too much aggro. I used to root-park mobs with total impunity on live. If I snapped aggro from a tank with slow to park a mob, I only had to wait a few seconds before he regained aggro (whether a warrior or sk/pal). Now if I land 2-3 roots on a mob even without landing a slow (resist and/or root refresh), the tank won't be able to peel the mob for about 5-10s; this is aggravated when I aggro with slow, making me tank the mob sometimes for almost the full duration of the fight.


Malo Line:
Creates an OBSCENE amount of aggro. On live, the malo line was a pretty neutral debuff, generating little aggro. On P99, this spell goes even as far as somehow overwriting the aggro generated by tash, normally regarded as the king of aggro.

On live, I used to cast mala/malo and malosini a couple of seconds after the tank had nabbed aggro, even before assist was called. I could pretty much spam malosini until it stuck (mage/shaman). As a shaman, I could malo, wait for tash, malosini and then slow the same mob without drawing aggro (after the tank had built sufficient aggro: ~5-20% of mob HP).

The only time I drew aggro when only using the malo line was when I casted it on inc, before the tank had engaged it, right when the mob was pulled to camp.

Here, whenever I dare use it, I wait for assist to be called, then tash, then I cast malosi... and still end up drawing aggro for several seconds whether it gets resisted or not on the first try, making the spell line total garbage.


Slow Line:
Slow has always generated a lot of aggro, but always less than tash. Whenever a raid mob had to be slowed quickly, the enchanter was expected to die (tash suicide!) and the shaman sometimes followed shortly after.

However, never have I seen an instance where a slow spell generated more aggro than tash. This is pretty obvious on P99 when I slow a mob shortly after an enchanter has used tash on it. If the enchanter only casted tash once, I will get the aggro. If he cast anything else (mez attempt, root, whatever), he usually gets it.


Dispel Line:
There's already a thread about it but thought I'd mention it here. Dispels used to be pretty neutral debuffs, akin to the malo line and root.


Regen Line:
I'm not sure about this one, but maybe someone else could give some feedback. It strikes me a bit funny that a regen spell creates as much aggro as a full heal, sometimes even more.

[Omnimorph]

!

But you look so happy when you're tanking [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But yeah, I mean there are times on raids where if i tash / mez a mob, i end up tanking it for the whole fight. (this is with an angry mob of melees beating the mob down with yaks!) I certainly don't remember that in classic.

[guineapig]

I've started using reoccuring amnesia after mezing and it helps some.
Let's face it, that's the reason chanters have those spells in the first place.

As far as tash goes, I rarely get hit by a mob just for tashing so I don't think there is an issue with that.

As far as the mez goes, if the tank takes the time to do some agro abilities before breaking mez, you should in theory be okay. It rarely seems to work on this server, so you might have something here. But if your tank just breaks mez willy nilly then it's the tanks fault, not your spells.

I still think the nuke aggro is set a notch too high, compared to what it was on live but I have gotten used to it. I know it has an instant stun component but still, ice-comets cause less aggro. I could be mistaken though because by the time I quit playing I had aggro reducing AA's.

[mgellan]

Originally Posted by guineapig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as the mez goes, if the tank takes the time to do some agro abilities before breaking mez, you should in theory be okay. It rarely seems to work on this server, so you might have something here. But if your tank just breaks mez willy nilly then it's the tanks fault, not your spells.

Theoretically, based on how Taunt has been described on this server, if I stand in front of a mezzed mob and fire off a few Taunts before breaking mez, it should stay on me right? I've yet to have that happen on P99 yet in my live days that worked fine... seems to contradict the "taunt puts you at the top of the hate list" thing...

Regards,
Mg

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by mgellan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theoretically, based on how Taunt has been described on this server, if I stand in front of a mezzed mob and fire off a few Taunts before breaking mez, it should stay on me right? I've yet to have that happen on P99 yet in my live days that worked fine... seems to contradict the "taunt puts you at the top of the hate list" thing...

Regards,
Mg

One successful taunt is enough to put you at the top of the aggro list by 1 point. Following up with a bash, or kick is preferred to a second taunt.

A second taunt doesn't add any additional aggro if you're already on top, it just wastes a taunt.
(Obviously if you are a hybrid you should be using high aggro spells as well.)

The general rule about taunt is that you only use it when you loose agro and never when you already have it.

[Gorroth]

Originally Posted by guineapig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as tash goes, I rarely get hit by a mob just for tashing so I don't think there is an issue with that..

As far as the mez goes, if the tank takes the time to do some agro abilities before breaking mez, you should in theory be okay. It rarely seems to work on this server, so you might have something here. But if your tank just breaks mez willy nilly then it's the tanks fault, not your spells.

Tash aggro is appropriate, I think, which is why I didn't add it to the list of spells.

Also, only paladins can reliably generate aggro on mezzed mobs without breaking mez. Taunt is currently useless on raid mobs, although I think that's bound to change come Kunark; this isn't the topic of this thread, however.

Mez is fine, from an aggro point of view.

[Omnimorph]

But he has a point that a succesful taunt should mean that regardless of what happens the mob shouldn't go straight for the chanter. As i imagine the chanter won't be doing anything to increase their aggro after mez.

Our nukes are and always have been aggro magnets, can't really tell if us getting aggro from them is because they're generating too much (i doubt) or if it's because of tanks not having their aggro generating sufficient.

Tash usually gets you aggro because of how early you have to cast it, not so much because of it generating too much aggro.

Reoccuring amnesia is just periodic memblur aye? I've always considered it a less than useful spell since it'll erase the aggro built up by your tank and then if a wizard nukes or something they'll probably die. Probably have a more desirable use during soloing with a charmed pet or something.

I miss my tash reducing focus items :/

[guineapig]

I agree that root spells seem to generate a lot of agro on this server but can't say how much it used to generate on live as I didn't use it much outside of soloing.

[YendorLootmonkey]

A few things:

- I was pulling and then rootparking mobs all night for my group so I could chainpull. Unless root broke instantly, I never had the mob re-aggro on me.... however, I did run off to pull again so proximity may have something to do with it.

- Keep in mind that we are playing in classic... unless your warrior has some nice proc'ing low-delay weapons (SSOY, haste, etc), it's a bit harder for him to generate aggro than what we remember from Kunark forward.

- Taunt (I presume at max skill) works about 60% of the time. The tank only needs it to be successful once to get over your non-DoT spell aggro (DoT's are, of course, a different story as they are generating aggro every tick). The lower the taunt skill, I presume the lower that success rate is if you're grouping with a sub-50 tank ( http://www.thesteelwarrior.net/forum...1&postcount=13 for reference)

- If you have a hybrid tank, if they are not casting Disease Cloud or Blind/Stun to help with aggro (or Flame Lick for leet rangertanks!), along with Taunt, they are not aggroing to the best of their ability and you should address that in your group if casters are getting crunched.

The spell aggro may not be higher than you remember, it's probably just been a while since you've been playing with tanks that do not have their taunt skill maxed, with classic weapons that may not do much to build aggro. Or your knight classes are slacking off on the additional spell aggro they can utilize.

Just something to consider.

[Yoite]

Originally Posted by mgellan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theoretically, based on how Taunt has been described on this server, if I stand in front of a mezzed mob and fire off a few Taunts before breaking mez, it should stay on me right? I've yet to have that happen on P99 yet in my live days that worked fine... seems to contradict the "taunt puts you at the top of the hate list" thing...

Regards,
Mg

This works fine for me on my war. to wake up a messed mob and not have it eat the enc i do the following which works unless i fail tuant, which is why i usually repeat taunt/sit twice before i attack.

Taunt - Sit - Taunt - Sit - Kick - Auto attack.

i noticed that just taunt and then attack sometimes wasnt enough to keep it on me once i would break mes, but if you sit after you taunt and before you break it, it will work wonders.

Shit...now i got off topic and forgot what i was actually coming here to say about spell agro...