Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[loramin]

So now, after dropping the discussion in the middle and not responding to any of my points, you want to just restart things with a brand new wall of text, ignoring my points and staring with the ones you want. You're the king of honest discussion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But fuck it, let's go anyway.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am sorry, but you have just been proven wrong.

The best debates are won by people who just keep repeating "I've won" over and over.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your Magelo shows that your definition of a "normal shaman" has 200k+ worth of gear, and you refuse to show a different interpretation. Factually speaking a Shaman with 200k+ worth of gear can cap STA.

No one disagrees with that: you've shown a Shaman can max their Stamina for much less. But you're willfully ignoring the much larger point, which is that Shaman have lots of benefits they can get from gear, and they are not going to ignore all those other benefits just so they can max their Stamina.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

Again, no argument from me, at 60 with good gear Stamina is easier to cap ... but still, non-raid Shaman won't be hitting any stat cap until the very end of their career.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason

I stopped reading right there: every time you declare "THERE IS ONLY ONE REASON AND I KNOW IT" it shows you're not having a rational discussion, you're just declaring "I AM RIGHT AND NO ONE CAN ARGUE WITH ME".

Make points like a human being, by saying "X is Y" ... not "I DECLARE THERE IS ONLY ONE BELIEF WHICH IS CORRECT: X MUST ALWAYS BE Y!"

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level.

Again, everyone in this thread agrees: stats are largely meaningless. But you can only pick Stamina or Wisdom, not AC or HP Regen or DPS or anything else with your starting stats, and both Wisdom and Stamina scale by level.

But ... the HP from the scaled Stamina will be more valuable than the Mana from the scaled Wisdom, because HP saves you from death and Mana doesn't.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

It will save your life more times than 30 Mana will, and everything else is just you repeating what we all agree: other stuff is better than max Stamina.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Again, yes, you are correct: +25 Starting Stamina will not save your life often! ... but it will save your life more than +25 Wisdom ... a point I have repeated endlessly in this 24 pages of discussion, and yet you have failed to address in your wall of text.

[ArbiterBlixen]

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So now, after dropping the discussion in the middle and not responding to any of my points, you want to just restart things with a brand new wall of text, ignoring my points and staring with the ones you want. You're the king of honest discussion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But fuck it, let's go anyway.

The best debates are won by people who just keep repeating "I've won" over and over.

You are the one who has proven time and again they don't read posts. The only thing I can do is move on, because it is clear you can't have a normal discussion about this. You just keep repeating disproven points, and you don't know they are disproven due to lack of reading.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one disagrees with that: you've shown a Shaman can max their Stamina for much less. But you're willfully ignoring the much larger point, which is that Shaman have lots of benefits they can get from gear, and they are not going to ignore all those other benefits just so they can max their Stamina.

I am not ignoring that point, you just didn't read[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can cap STA easily with gear + Riotous Health + an STA potion. Just because you don't like using potions or STA gear, doesn't mean it is harder to cap STA. You have multiple avenues to get tons of STA, and this is not true with WIS.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, no argument from me, at 60 with good gear Stamina is easier to cap ... but still, non-raid Shaman won't be hitting any stat cap until the very end of their career.

Provide a Magelo please. You keep refusing to provide evidence for this, other than your 200k+ Magelo of yourself, which can cap STA just fine. So far there are 4 Magelos proving my point against 0 Magelos proving yours.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I stopped reading right there: every time you declare "THERE IS ONLY ONE REASON AND I KNOW IT" it shows you're not having a rational discussion, you're just declaring "I AM RIGHT AND NO ONE CAN ARGUE WITH ME".

This isn't what happened, the post history is clear. But at this point the only thing you can do is try to win the discussion this way.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, everyone in this thread agrees stats are largely meaningless. But you can only pick Stamina or Wisdom, not AC or HP Regen or DPS or anything else with your starting stats, and both Wisdom and Stamina scale by level (but ... the HP from the scaled Stamina will be more valuable than the Mana from the scaled Wisdom, because HP saves you from death and Mana doesn't).



It will save your life more times than 30 Mana will, and everything else is just you repeating what we all agree: other stuff is better than max Stamina.



Again, yes, you are correct: +25 Starting Stamina will not save your life often! ... but it will save your life more than +25 Wisdom, as I keep repeating.

Again, I have provided evidence to the contrary of this. You have provided nothing other than an anecdote. I myself did run out of mana before health while leveling. So evidence wise we are at an impasse there. We both have an unprovable anecdote. But I do have a video, and you do not. Factually speaking that video shows how Mana can save your life, and you have no evidence to show how the 75HP is better.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

And I sadly put so much of mine in stamina. =(

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

Good catch!

I genuinely thought I put them in Stamina, but it was nearly a decade ago now, and I didn't even think of checking Magelo. Also, I'm lazy, and didn't want to have to make bag space, take off all my gear, and debuff myself just to check ... but now I guess I have to, and ... Stamina 105, Wisdom 105 (ie. the Magelo is accurate).

So to amend:

Originally Posted by Loramin

... and yet, Loramin only has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

If I had put 25 in Stamina Lormain would have 200 Stamina, which is 250 self-buffed. Still not capped, but definitely a lot closer than I was suggesting.

It weakens my argument slightly, but doesn't change my central thesis: for 95+% of a Shaman's life (wherever they put their stat points) they will not hit the caps.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And I sadly put so much of mine in stamina. =(

Why sadly? If there's any consensus in this thread at all it's that starting stats don't matter (even for raid Shaman).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good catch!

I genuinely thought I put them in Stamina, but it was nearly a decade ago now, and I didn't even think of checking Magelo. Also, I'm lazy, and didn't want to have to make bag space, take off all my gear, and debuff myself just to check ... but now I guess I have to, and ... Stamina 105, Wisdom 105 (ie. the Magelo is accurate).

So to amend:



If I had put 25 in Stamina Lormain would have 200 Stamina, which is 250 self-buffed. Still not capped, but definitely a lot closer than I was suggesting.

... but regardless, it doesn't change my central thesis, that for 95+% of a Shaman's life (wherever they put their stat points) they will not hit the caps.

You need to show evidence for your thesis[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] So far I have video evidence and multiple Magelos. Then we can actually have a discussion about it.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why sadly? If there's any consensus in this thread at all it's that starting stats don't matter (even for raid Shaman).

Well the rest of the thread aside, I am an ogre lol. Mistakes were make.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are the one who has proven time and again they don't read posts. The only thing I can do is move on, because it is clear you can't have a normal discussion about this. You just keep repeating disproven points, and you don't know they are disproven due to lack of reading.

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can cap STA easily with gear + Riotous Health + an STA potion. Just because you don't like using potions or STA gear, doesn't mean it is harder to cap STA. You have multiple avenues to get tons of STA, and this is not true with WIS.

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Provide a Magelo please. You keep refusing to provide evidence for this, other than your 200k+ Magelo of yourself, which can cap STA just fine. So far there are 4 Magelos proving my point against 0 Magelos proving yours.

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't what happened, the post history is clear.

Yeah, you never just declared "the only ___", as if your beliefs were self-established facts; someone else must have written:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

And:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I have provided evidence to the contrary of this. You have provided nothing other than an anecdote. I myself did run out of mana before health while leveling. So evidence wise we are at an impasse there. We both have an unprovable anecdote. But I do have a video, and you do noThis isn't what happened, the post history is clear.t. Factually speaking that video shows how Mana can save your life, and you have no evidence to show how the 75HP is better.

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well the rest of the thread aside, I am an ogre lol. Mistakes were make.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Well even so, I'm sure stats still don't really matter. I imagine there's no raid whether other Shaman beat you to the slow because of your stats, and no solo encounter that they can do that you can't (or even that they can do noticeably easier).

And you have FSI, which is more than Loramin has!