Shaman race debate

[webrunner5]

Ogre or go home. Why make a toon that is lesser for your needs. A Shaman is one of the FEW classes that can solo in Veloius. You will need all the help you can get in it. And a Ogre is that extra help to maybe save your butt. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ogre or go home. Why make a toon that is lesser for your needs. A Shaman is one of the FEW classes that can solo in Veloius. You will need all the help you can get in it. And a Ogre is that extra help to maybe save your butt. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Id bet there are equal numbers of times where stun immunity getting a spell off saves you as there are where the 80 extra HP a standing Troll gets over a minute of regening, will save you.

Shamans should never have 100% HP due to always Canning. This also means that Regen is always active, always benefitting. Sure you're getting 300 HP from your torpor per tick. But you can get 312 as a troll or Iksar.

I really wish we had the real classic version of Torpor on here for awhile that would drain 50 mana a tick. That was way more balanced :/.

[DrKvothe]

I think we've all agreed that the racial regen bonus is great while leveling, but there's an ongoing idea in this thread that it only helps with "easy stuff." The suggestion that racial regen doesn't help on hard stuff pre-60 is just plain false. Pre-torpor it's very rarely burst damage that kills a shaman, where not getting bashed means you can cast that one spell that will save you. What's more likely to kill you or force a reset is the additional mana burden of a root break or an add when you were already having trouble holding down the other four. Pre-torpor, if something is doing enough damage that bash is the difference between life and death, it's too tough for you to solo anyways. If you've got more than 2 mobs beating on you, it's because you screwed up somehow. Hopefully you screwed up right next to a wall, otherwise FSI won't get your cast off!

On the other hand, root rotting 4+ mobs is all about 1) the break and 2) mana/hp management. The break is gonna cost you a puppy, and is thus a mana issue itself when attempting to hold down multiple such rooms. You want to hit as many med ticks as possible, you want to position the mobs in such a way that you're not getting hit and if one breaks you can root and still have somewhere to move to, etc. The harder the fight the fewer the med ticks you're going to catch. FSI will save you the occasional extra round, but this should be rare if you're playing properly. Fights are likely to last 6-10 minutes, so regen actually really matters to the total amount of mana you have at your disposal.

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

[Ezalor]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think we've all agreed that the racial regen bonus is great while leveling, but there's an ongoing idea in this thread that it only helps with "easy stuff." The suggestion that racial regen doesn't help on hard stuff pre-60 is just plain false. Pre-torpor it's very rarely burst damage that kills a shaman, where not getting bashed means you can cast that one spell that will save you. What's more likely to kill you or force a reset is the additional mana burden of a root break or an add when you were already having trouble holding down the other four. Pre-torpor, if something is doing enough damage that bash is the difference between life and death, it's too tough for you to solo anyways. If you've got more than 2 mobs beating on you, it's because you screwed up somehow. Hopefully you screwed up right next to a wall, otherwise FSI won't get your cast off!

On the other hand, root rotting 4+ mobs is all about 1) the break and 2) mana/hp management. The break is gonna cost you a puppy, and is thus a mana issue itself when attempting to hold down multiple such rooms. You want to hit as many med ticks as possible, you want to position the mobs in such a way that you're not getting hit and if one breaks you can root and still have somewhere to move to, etc. The harder the fight the fewer the med ticks you're going to catch. FSI will save you the occasional extra round, but this should be rare if you're playing properly. Fights are likely to last 6-10 minutes, so regen actually really matters to the total amount of mana you have at your disposal.

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

you made a good argument for why regen is good at level 59

but levels 1-49, the regen is not really a big diff

i hope no one thinks they're gonna have fungi regen 1-49 while leveling up

check the graph

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[loramin]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

I'm trying to follow your logic, but having trouble.

Fights don't normally last that long, so can we say a minute is a reasonable average length? If so we're talking about regen Shaman having 47 more mana a fight than a non-regen Shaman. That's about 1/5 of an ice strike, or about 120 direct damage. Maybe a bit more if you use a DoT instead.

Now if we consider fighting a Seafury Cyclops (a green to a 59 shaman), they have 4700 HP. So the difference between a regen shaman and a non-regen shaman is ... 1/40th of a (green) mob's hit points. Perhaps 1/30th if you use a DoT instead (too lazy to calculate).

I just don't see a very convincing argument there: an extra 1/30th of a green mob's HP per fight isn't a very strong reason to pick a race. But to be fair, I'd expect a similar calculation of frontal stun immunity's benefits to be just as unimpressive.

Seems to me the real moral of this story is that neither racial benefit really matters that much, at level 59 at least.

[theaetatus]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Using canni 3 (and assuming the 100 to 47 value on wiki is accurate), at 59 a standing ogre gets ~34 mana per minute while a standing troll gets ~67 mana per minute. If you're missing a lot of med ticks because you're scrambling to keep everything rooted/dotted or you're busy positioning, this is a ridiculous difference. It's a 47 mana per minute difference if you're hitting every med tick.

You're missing the point. Even if, by some miracle, you're not getting hit by anything while you break this tough camp, you're still only getting enough mana for one more slow every 5-6 minutes.

However, it is much more likely you're getting bashed and eating several extra rounds of melee while trying to get off a root or slow, negating the regen bonus entirely and actually ending up with less hp than if you had been an ogre.

Yes, we all know shamans are 'op' and any race will be good at this sort of stuff, but all other things equal, an ogre has a clear advantage at doing tougher stuff. If you're choosing a shaman race and don't care about min/maxing, pick whichever one you prefer the models for. If you are min/maxing, pick ogre.

[citizen1080]

Ogre for solo, iksar for raiding, trolls for blind people (so ugly)

[loramin]

Originally Posted by citizen1080 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ogre for solo, iksar for raiding, trolls for blind people (so ugly)

And Barbarian for pragmatic people who don't have the luxury of being able to play EQ all day (and thus don't have time to waste on racial XP penalties or on factioning).

And people who like polar bear hats.

[citizen1080]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And Barbarian for pragmatic people who don't have the luxury of being able to play EQ all day (and thus don't have time to waste on racial XP penalties or on factioning).

And people who like polar bear hats.

^

[Ezalor]

vanity is the only thing that should matter in picking your race

polar bear hats are cool but overall i think barbs are the #2 worst looking shaman besides iksars