Spells: Dispelling

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Talendor's AE isn't a Dispell. Just a DoT...

I guess you're right - but beneath my top 2 clickies I had long-duration junks (AC and CHA) that should have still been up when we engaged.

Talendor died ~40 minutes after I arrived at the camp (checked logs). Even if I got those buffs immediately, they are 90 and 81 minutes duration, respectively and WOULD have been up when I engaged.

The facts:
- Prior to engage, I had these 4 buffs at the top: 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3&4) shadow and overwhelming splendor (not sure which order).
- Just after the dragon died, I had 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3)immolating breath; 4) empty; 5-?)the rest of my raid buffs
- I was not "bufflocked" ... I had 10-12 buffs and no bard in my group.

Can anyone explain that?

edit: OK, come to think of it - we did have a couple adds with the dragon. I am PRETTY sure none of them were chromodracs - but even if I got hit with that AE as well, stuff's not adding up.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I know later expansions (Luclin, IIRC) had items with the Brilliance of Ro effect that raised your caster level by 20. This would also factor into making your spells harder to dispel, right?

Perhaps there's more commentary about dispel mechanics hidden in the discussions on Brilliance of Ro. I'll add any that I personally find.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess you're right - but beneath my top 2 clickies I had long-duration junks (AC and CHA) that should have still been up when we engaged.

Talendor died ~40 minutes after I arrived at the camp (checked logs). Even if I got those buffs immediately, they are 90 and 81 minutes duration, respectively and WOULD have been up when I engaged.

The facts:
- Prior to engage, I had these 4 buffs at the top: 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3&4) shadow and overwhelming splendor (not sure which order).
- Just after the dragon died, I had 1) grim aura; 2)jboots; 3)immolating breath; 4) empty; 5-?)the rest of my raid buffs
- I was not "bufflocked" ... I had 10-12 buffs and no bard in my group.

Can anyone explain that?

edit: OK, come to think of it - we did have a couple adds with the dragon. I am PRETTY sure none of them were chromodracs - but even if I got hit with that AE as well, stuff's not adding up.

its not that hard to fathom. Your top two junk buffs had higher buff counter rolls than the buffs at #3 and 4.

If you are MAX buffed (ie 15 buffs no room for more ), the dot will overwrite a buff and I guess the manner in which it overwrites is affected by the number of buff counters and goes from top to bottom line dispell ( speculating)

thats why Immo breath jumped to #3, and when you tried to dispell it, the dispell got rid of buff #4 because of the aforementioned high buff counter rolls for your first 2 junk slots

just speculating

[Daldaen]

The concensus on the Mac server regarding that focus, was that it was always broken from implementation.

I had the Aegis on my druid and the Scepter on my... Enchanter maybe? Maybe it was the Necro, I forget.

Never noticed any changed with it at all.

As for your case I suggest looking at logs of the encounter and you'll figure out why the Debuff was in slot 3.

Also why the hell did you have slots 1+2 filled with junk buffs on that fight? If you were intending to Dispell the AE you want those slots empty so it goes in the top?!?!?!?

[Haynar]

Level has so effect on dispell. It never did.

The issue is dispell was never fully understood. I took the info the soe devs provided and put together a few theories. Then I got on eqlive and started going through different buffs and dispelling them. Using spells with single and multiple spell effects. Counting how many dispells it takes each time. Doing different buffs 100-200 times each. For hours and hours.

Then I took the data I had to come up with how it really worked. I adjusted my hypothesis several times as I took data untill I was able to figure out the actual mechanics at play. It sucked. I spent many many hours figuring it out.

I provided a lot of my conclusions, to share my findings. Just so I could get the info out there. And so others might come up with other things to check. Like clickies, and how the could be different.

You can argue all you want. You can reference ancient posts where people guess how it works. I took a shit load of data to make one of the best efforts to date in reproducing this classic mechanic. Many thanks to all those that dug up info, that helped me get this working right.

For those that want to continue arguing that I got it wrong. STFU, delete all your chars, and go play somewhere else. Clearly I did not do this for the ungrateful bastards who have an over inflated sense of self entitlement.

Haynar'd

[Erati]

I think our dispell system is more classic than ever and I enjoy the fact that I use annul magic now instead of silly cancel magic

really appreciate the hours of testing / theory crafting that went into this change

I think if we could figure out the puzzle piece of what makes the randomness of the buff counter roll a larger amount of counters for high lvl buffs vs clickies then I think the dispell system will function perfectly classic as we can get

[Nirgon]

gr8 changes move to resolved

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

its not that hard to fathom. Your top two junk buffs had higher buff counter rolls than the buffs at #3 and 4.

If you are MAX buffed (ie 15 buffs no room for more ), the dot will overwrite a buff and I guess the manner in which it overwrites is affected by the number of buff counters and goes from top to bottom line dispell ( speculating)

thats why Immo breath jumped to #3, and when you tried to dispell it, the dispell got rid of buff #4 because of the aforementioned high buff counter rolls for your first 2 junk slots

just speculating

As stated, I was not bufflocked.

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also why the hell did you have slots 1+2 filled with junk buffs on that fight? If you were intending to Dispell the AE you want those slots empty so it goes in the top?!?!?!?

You guys are assuming I knew what I was doing... never do that. I am sure about what I observed, however. I didn't try to dispel Talendor's AE until after the fight and I clicked off my clicky buffs (grim aura and jboots). The cleric in my group then dispelled it with a single cast of something (unimportant).

However incorrectly, I was thinking I'd get buffs knocked off the top and then refresh the clickies. What appears to have happened is that Talendor's AE stripped my #3 buff and then took its place. A subsequent AE stripped #4 buff and refreshed itself in slot #3 - all while Slots 1 & 2 were occupied by clicky buffs, which always did a great job of being sacrificial lambs in the past (even as far back as classic).

Anyway - this is tangential to the OP and should probably get its own thread if it can be observed again. Please don't discount my observations because my Talendor strat was bad - keep your eyes open next time you kill him.

Thanks!

[Raev]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=861

Lava Breath is Cancel Magic(9). So shouldn't that always strip the top buff?

[Daldaen]

Yes, dragon AEs are a max counter of 9 every time so they should strip top buff and stop regardless of whether it has max (8) counters or min (1).

But none of the Kunark Dragons have a Dispell except Faydedar.