Raid Changes

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yeah sorry lol I got caught up in trying to keep this from becoming TMO bashing. Back on target!

[Chokan]

I never raided on EQ1, but I did on EQ2, while they had contested mobs with spawn variences. My guild had to switch servers to even get attempts in, to learn each fight. If there wasn't a variance, we would've been at least able to attempt mobs and improve as players. Who's going to want to join a raiding guild that doesn't even get to attempt anything? Set spawn time will promote more competition, which is what it seems everyone wants, including TMO...

[arsenalpow]

smaller guilds could have attempts right now if TMO would agree to a rotation, that's more likely than the GMs removing variance currently

i'm not trying to derail this conversation, i'm just looking for any possible change to increase the viability of everyone else trying to get some raid mobs killed

[Daldolma]

That may be true, but asking TMO for charity isn't a sustainable solution. There's no reason for TMO to accept a rotation. There's nothing that would hold them to such a rotation. It would be an empty, short-term gesture that would have more to do with them not needing the loot than the end-game being fixed. Come Velious, that kind of rotation would be flushed and abandoned, and we'd be right back where we are now.

The change has to come organically. The conditions need to be altered. We shouldn't be asking guilds to work against their own self interest. We should be fixing the server rules so that every guild working in their own self interest ultimately results in an acceptable end-game situation. This isn't care bear stuff where we fix the server to help the underdogs. This is server health stuff. The server needs to be fixed to adhere to classic and to promote classic end-game conditions.

[Loke]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement,

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

[Alarti0001]

Best idea... simulated repops, maybe monthly
Put in velious, remove variance.

Done

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

Truths.

Also, TMO will never agree to a rotation as long as the core is still around that fought to be in the position they are in now. It would be like asking an army that just took over a castle while you were laid up in a whore house if you can now be king every weekend... not gonna happen.

[Versus]

I'll throw in for Semi-Regular repops, announced or not.

If they are announced, perhaps don't schedule them. How about a serverwide message the instant it happens? Non-Classic, I know.

Also, I'd be game for SHORTENED variances. Getting rid of them completely is a bad idea. I despise the sock.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Versus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll throw in for Semi-Regular repops, announced or not.

If they are announced, perhaps don't schedule them. How about a serverwide message the instant it happens? Non-Classic, I know.

Also, I'd be game for SHORTENED variances. Getting rid of them completely is a bad idea. I despise the sock.

I think they should be announced somewhat in advance. That was what gave casual guilds the time to prepare on Live and even on p99, the fact that they knew a patch was incoming and so they could camp their mains at whatever their desired target was. I'm not even asking for 24 hours notice, but some notice would be good.

Ideally, Rogean would have no obligations outside of eq, and would be able to patch every 1-2 weeks. Then we wouldn't even need to talk about "simulated" patch days, since we could just have regular patch days (more often than once every few months I mean). If this isn't possible, then I say we should either have simulated patch days, or all 7 day mobs should share the same timer, or the variance should be reduced to something more reasonable like at most +/- 12 hours, or some combination of the above. Really, I'm okay with anything so long as it isn't a huge deviation from classic, and so long as casual guilds can still compete - and when I say compete, yes, I actually mean compete. If one guild doesn't want to rotate I don't feel they should have to.