Raid Changes

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I've done plenty of tracking myself. It sucks I'm sure we can all agree on that.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Sweetbaby Jesus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are underestimating TMO then if you think we stand any chance against them with a variance in place. They are built for this we are not. I do see your point though about people being more willing to track in small guild if it were for a shorter amount of time.

You stand more of a chance if people are more apt to get involved. You stand more of a chance when mobs have more of a chance at spawning at the same time.

shorter windows promote both of those things.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yes those are both very true statements I cannot argue that. Still though I can't get past the fact that it would just make less work for TMO. I mean IB/VD tracked around the clock with TMO and TMO still came out on top in the end of that. BDA tracks stuff not sure if they track all hours of the day or not but they aren't getting many targets either.

[Daldolma]

Shortening variance is definitely worse than eliminating it, and arguably worse than leaving it the same. Shortening variance has two effects: making life easier on the mega-guild that is already dominating everything and encouraging poop-socking. Both are the opposite of classic and serve only to further encourage what has ruined the end-game.

Maintaining variance to ensure pops in different prime times is totally unclassic. May as well instance. The goal isn't to give everyone a fair share. If you play in Europe, you may have a harder time getting certain mobs. At the same time, you may have a huge advantage with others. It all depends. The truth is, most patches have come during the day, which means the raid mobs are going to start in Euro prime time and drift toward US prime time 10+ minutes at a time.

There are so many biases at play when you talk about fixing the end-game. For that reason and 100 others, the best solution is to make the end-game classic and pick up the pieces afterward. Classic server, classic endgame.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shortening variance is definitely worse than eliminating it, and arguably worse than leaving it the same. Shortening variance has two effects: making life easier on the mega-guild that is already dominating everything and encouraging poop-socking. Both are the opposite of classic and serve only to further encourage what has ruined the end-game.

Maintaining variance to ensure pops in different prime times is totally unclassic. May as well instance. The goal isn't to give everyone a fair share. If you play in Europe, you may have a harder time getting certain mobs. At the same time, you may have a huge advantage with others. It all depends. The truth is, most patches have come during the day, which means the raid mobs are going to start in Euro prime time and drift toward US prime time 10+ minutes at a time.

There are so many biases at play when you talk about fixing the end-game. For that reason and 100 others, the best solution is to make the end-game classic and pick up the pieces afterward. Classic server, classic endgame.

It's not that it makes TMO's life any easier (it obviously does) but it makes everyone's life easier.

TMO is already getting all the mobs, so now you're saying you'd rather have no shot so long as it's a pain in the ass for them... (not saying you even want a shot, but that's how that mentality looks)

Shortening the windows makes things easier, but also makes things harder for TMO. Less tracking time, but more guilds would want to track and get involved. As it stands, no guild wants to play the game with TMO.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I think the main point is that 18 hours or 96 hours TMO will get it all with the variance in place. Other guilds can track all they want TMO isn't going to lose the mobilization battle.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Sweetbaby Jesus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the main point is that 18 hours or 96 hours TMO will get it all with the variance in place. Other guilds can track all they want TMO isn't going to lose the mobilization battle.

You would be surprised. TMO has lost plenty in the past, they don't lose now because no one plays.

There are plenty of capable guilds who would start showing up if mobs were on 18hour windows and had bi-weekly scheduled repops.

Hell TMO would probably start shaving members if things changed, they wouldn't need the large force anymore in that scenario.

[Daldolma]

As an aside, I have no idea what you're talking about Giegue. Shortening variance would be absolutely disastrous for small guilds. Tracking an 18-hour window means nothing -- don't you understand? If Divinity and TMO are both tracking the same mob in a shortened window, TMO is going to beat you 100 times out of 100. So yes, you might have a better chance of actually getting a batphone when the mob pops: good luck with that. Divinity will log in 12 players at 4 PM or 4AM EST. TMO will log in 35. Good game. Let's say you luck out and a low-priority raid mob happens to pop at 8PM EST, early in its window -- perfect conditions for a small guild. You're still not beating TMO and BDA to the finish line. TMO is willing to track 96 hour windows and hop online at any time. What do you think they're going to do when you condense things into 18 hour windows? They'll have 50 people ready to pounce the second it pops. They had 77 raiding the other night. You cannot beat them in a variance battle. If anyone beats them, it will be BDA -- because once again, variance caters to size. TMO and BDA can mobilize 50% of their raid force and throw warm bodies at mobs instantly. Smaller guilds need to wait for their entire raid force, then prepare. Maybe if you're lucky they'll link loot.

On top of that, once a mob gets toward the end of its window, guilds are just going to poop-sock. Inny with 5 hours? Sounds like a good time for a Hate clear... said 4 different guilds. Trak window at 8 hours? Hey, how about we get a few dozen people to clear juggs. This would be the only chance a small guild has with a shortened variance -- by poop-socking in window. But once that starts, then everyone is going to poop-sock in window. Insert mess.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As an aside, I have no idea what you're talking about Giegue. Shortening variance would be absolutely disastrous for small guilds. Tracking an 18-hour window means nothing -- don't you understand? If Divinity and TMO are both tracking the same mob in a shortened window, TMO is going to beat you 100 times out of 100. So yes, you might have a better chance of actually getting a batphone when the mob pops: good luck with that. Divinity will log in 12 players at 4 PM or 4AM EST. TMO will log in 35. Good game. Let's say you luck out and a low-priority raid mob happens to pop at 8PM EST, early in its window -- perfect conditions for a small guild. You're still not beating TMO and BDA to the finish line. TMO is willing to track 96 hour windows and hop online at any time. What do you think they're going to do when you condense things into 18 hour windows? They'll have 50 people ready to pounce the second it pops. They had 77 raiding the other night. You cannot beat them in a variance battle. If anyone beats them, it will be BDA -- because once again, variance caters to size. TMO and BDA can mobilize 50% of their raid force and throw warm bodies at mobs instantly. Smaller guilds need to wait for their entire raid force, then prepare. Maybe if you're lucky they'll link loot.

On top of that, once a mob gets toward the end of its window, guilds are just going to poop-sock. Inny with 5 hours? Sounds like a good time for a Hate clear... said 4 different guilds. Trak window at 8 hours? Hey, how about we get a few dozen people to clear juggs. This would be the only chance a small guild has with a shortened variance -- by poop-socking in window. But once that starts, then everyone is going to poop-sock in window. Insert mess.

Now insert bi-weekly repops to keep all of the mobs around 24hrs of each other before the next repop.

Honestly atm, what is helping TMO is the large variance. Things are so spread out that they can easily defend(for a lack of a better word) "their" mobs from other guilds. The risk of going after one target and having another spawn during the same time is very minimal. It might of happened 4 times over the 9 months of raiding I put in last go round. Condense it down into a shorter period and now TMO has to defend all the targets in a much shorter time spawn against more foes.

Makes it rather difficult to be in all places at once while people are all attacking your pixels.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not that it makes TMO's life any easier (it obviously does) but it makes everyone's life easier.

TMO is already getting all the mobs, so now you're saying you'd rather have no shot so long as it's a pain in the ass for them... (not saying you even want a shot, but that's how that mentality looks)

Shortening the windows makes things easier, but also makes things harder for TMO. Less tracking time, but more guilds would want to track and get involved. As it stands, no guild wants to play the game with TMO.

To me, it's not about having a shot or causing anyone a pain in the ass. For me, it's about classic. I have no problem with TMO, because TMO isn't even a real entity. There are 40 different types of personalities in TMO and 20 different cliques of pals. It's an amalgamation of everyone that wants to be involved in the end-game, because the only way to be involved is to join TMO. That is terribly un-classic. The conditions of classic were such that it wasn't possible for one guild to dominate content, so there was no reason to form mega-guilds.

Whether or not shortening windows makes things easier for other guilds (and I don't agree that it would), it's still not classic, and it promotes poop-socking again. I just don't see what's wrong with classic. If the server goal is classic, and classic endgame is attainable with some minor fixes for dispute resolution, why push for anything else?