Left - Right : Epiphany

[maskedmelon]

As most of you know, I am somewhat politically confused with a mix of views from different points along the left-right continuum and have expressed (or maybe not?) somewhat dissonant views on various topics. Most of this I've attributed to differences in reasoned understandings and preferences.

Well, yesterday I was struck most gently with revelation. It occurred to me that my preference for limited government is strongly correlated with combatting some of the nastier aspects rightist individualism while my understanding of the necessity for a strongly authoritarian state to advance man is strongly correlated with tempering less palatable aspects of leftist collectivism.

This epiphany helped me better understand why I generally identify as a moderate centrist while holding seemingly incongruent extreme views. It also led me to clearly identify the libertarian left and authoritarian right and the most deplorable realms of political ideology because the outcomes of both are necessarily stagnation or worse.

Why?

Well, limited government is necessary to minimize government corruption on the right because if the state does not control the money, the money controls the state... a condition we see increasingly today in the US.

On the left, if the state commands the resources then it is responsible for caring for its collective citizenry and determining the best use of said resources, which always should be advancing the state. Individual liberty in that setting becomes a threat to the livelihood of the state.

Currently, the US is becoming increasingly authoritarian and I actually agree with Alarti's suggestion that HRC exists in the realm of the authoritarian right, but would add while pandering to the libertarian left. The US is too caught up in social issues and abuse of government to pummel dissent. We either need less government or a massive shift to the left and if we are going to go there, it needs to be absolute.

I don't really see any practical solution and it is why I prefer things to just stay where they are, so that I can go about my life and be left alone. If we are keen on change, we either need a Vulcan overlord or the freedom to destroy one another.

I need to give more thought to what this means as we move to the center though, which is where I sit. Is the plot of 'ideal government' from left to right just linear and downward sloping, or is it varied in slope?

Thoughts?

[Nibblewitz]

Illusions of political choice. You need money to influence policy.

Good governments should be large enough to safeguard its citizenship from the greed of capitalism.

[Nibblewitz]

You should look into Economic Determinism. We must understand how politics is influenced by economics, if we ever wish to improve upon it.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Nibblewitz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should look into Economic Determinism. We must understand how politics is influenced by economics, if we ever wish to improve upon it.

I read the wiki article you linked, but struggled to digest it. The article suggested that it both was and was not a Marxist idea, but never seemed to elucidate in what it was other than economic class being the foundation for all other social & political relationships. If that is true, why aren't peoples of various economic classes united in political & social views. The article just spent more time talking about people who agree or disagree that it is a genuine Marxist philosophy.

[Nibblewitz]

That's the point. Values, customs, beliefs, ideals, institutions, etc. are all derived from the economic construct. Your place in the economic system dictates your ideas and beliefs, if you take stock in economic determinism. It also highlights the perceived struggle between the rich and poor in Marxism.

[Nibblewitz]

What is the role of government?

We seem to have differing opinions about how the government should operate and I think the fundamental discussion starts with this question.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Nibblewitz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the point. Values, customs, beliefs, ideals, institutions, etc. are all derived from the economic construct. Your place in the economic system dictates your ideas and beliefs, if you take stock in economic determinism. It also highlights the perceived struggle between the rich and poor in Marxism.

But it doesn't. You have people with wildly different beliefs throughout the political spectrum. Can you give a specific example of how people of a particular economic class hold the same beliefs? How about the middle class?

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Nibblewitz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good governments should be large enough to safeguard its citizenship from the greed of capitalism.

See this is precisely where I disagree. Capitalistic societies must necessarily have small lean governments to limit the power that can be purchased. A powerful government in a capitalistic society is a Shinkansen to oppression and stagnation.

[Nibblewitz]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See this is precisely where I disagree. Capitalistic societies must necessarily have small lean governments to limit the power that can be purchased. A powerful government in a capitalistic society is a Shinkansen to oppression and stagnation.

I'm not so sure you do. Unfettered capitalism is governed by black hole physics: money will pool in the hands of those who have. The same amounts of power will be purchased, just not purchased through a government who might possibly roll some prosperity down hill.

What you seem to really want is a world run by totalitarian factions (corporations). Very similar to what we have now sans humanitarian organizations; they couldn't exist in the world of red and black.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Nibblewitz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not so sure you do. Unfettered capitalism is governed by black hole physics: money will pool in the hands of those who have. The same amounts of power will be purchased, just not purchased through a government who might possibly roll some prosperity down hill.

Oh, so corporations are able to purchase the same amounts of power from the City of Butte, Montana as they can from United States of America? Why don't they just work with Butte then? Fewer people to deal with.

What you seem to really want is a world run by totalitarian factions (corporations). Very similar to what we have now sans humanitarian organizations; they couldn't exist in the world of red and black.

No, that's again precisely the opposite of what I said, although I do believe humanitarian organizations are a detriment to humanity. The situation that you describe though is the situation you would realize with a powerful government in a capitalistic society. In a capitalistic society the absence of a robust government to exploit means corporate survival hinges on defending oneself from competitors.

You make the false presumption that a large government is somehow inherently virtuous and officials would not be purchased by corporations in an environment of unfettered capitalism. We know that not to be true based on current circumstance. Right now our largest for-profit entities exist only because of government. They'd have died the death they should have had the government lacked the power to spare them.