Let's Put to Rest "Outdoor is/is not FFA" Myths

[QFuzzle]

Twice over this weekend I ran into people who held strongly different beliefs on the topic of mobs that are outdoors and their camp-able status. Irritatingly, I was at the brunt end of both occasions. At one point, a petition was sent out to end the dispute, but the hero never arrived (even though purposeful KS'ing was involved - yikes).

Both instances involved a solo individual challenging a group that was rapidly killing a large number of mobs within an outdoor fort area (BW giant fort, and WW giant fort to be exact).

Taking into considering the Play Nice Policy and having read the "Arbitration / Camps" portion of Rogean's rule post, there appears to not actually be a clear answer to this.

The beliefs consisted of (but weren't limited to):
1) All outdoor mobs are FFA except for a single spawn that's being killed by someone (something like AC would be an example of a highly contested spot that is outdoors and requires a special rule-set to apply to it).
2) If the whole fort/area is being killed proficiently by a group, it's their camp. Not FFA.
3) Certain mobs of the fort are different camps.

There may have been some specific rulings on this matter in the past, but I haven't found them. I'd like to get some clear, definitive, concise GM rulings or posts or something that will clear the air on this topic; something people can point to if there's an issue that people refuse to resolve themselves, and no GM comes to save the day.

[paulgiamatti]

Project 1999 Staff will not be defining what constitutes a camp. Instead, Project 1999 Customer Service Staff will arbitrate spawn disputes on a per-case-basis. We greatly encourage players to find their own resolution to spawn disputes, as the solution provided by the staff will at best be a win-lose situation, and possbily a lose-lose situation. No two decisions, even at the same 'camp', are guaranteed to be the same, as we will take into account multiple factors in making a determination on a 'camp'.

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders cleared. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. It should also be noted that if you camp out or leave the zone (this includes dying/"corpsing" items), you have forfeited a camp. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

Seems pretty clearly laid out to me.

If literally the entire fort is being cleared and mobs are not being left up for more than a few seconds, then for all intents and purposes that is a "camp". If someone waltzes in and starts sniping spawns in the few seconds before the group pulls them, then that person is being a complete asshole and should be petitioned.

And to be clear, waltzing in and sniping spawns isn't "contesting" a camp - it's just being an asshole. Contesting a camp means engaging in dialogue with the players like a reasonable person and expressing that you want some of those mobs if they aren't killing all of them.

[QFuzzle]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems pretty clearly laid out to me.

If literally the entire fort is being cleared and mobs are not being left up for more than a few seconds, then for all intents and purposes that is a "camp". If someone waltzes in and starts sniping spawns in the few seconds before the group pulls them, then that person is being a complete asshole and should be petitioned.

And to be clear, waltzing in and sniping spawns isn't "contesting" a camp - it's just being an asshole. Contesting a camp means engaging in dialogue with the players like a reasonable person and expressing that you want some of those mobs if they aren't killing all of them.

Ya' see, that's what I thought at first, until some guy rolled up and took some spawns without asking, then claimed he's had GM's side with him on this before and he's always won - yada yada. I have no idea if this guy was telling the truth or not, but he kept those BW giants on lockdown whether my group wanted it or not.

Then I try to go at it with that same perspective as a solo artist against a group with three pullers taking the entire WW fort; and find myself getting KS'ed.

Just help me understand!!

Sounds like that first guy mighta had the wrong idea according to the way you're laying it out.

[NegaStoat]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems pretty clearly laid out to me.

If literally the entire fort is being cleared and mobs are not being left up for more than a few seconds, then for all intents and purposes that is a "camp". If someone waltzes in and starts sniping spawns in the few seconds before the group pulls them, then that person is being a complete asshole and should be petitioned.

And to be clear, waltzing in and sniping spawns isn't "contesting" a camp - it's just being an asshole. Contesting a camp means engaging in dialogue with the players like a reasonable person and expressing that you want some of those mobs if they aren't killing all of them.

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

[paulgiamatti]

That's certainly a point of contention I'd have with outdoor camp enforcement, assuming that's still the way it's enforced. But in that case everything I've said thus far rings just as true - that person is still just as big of an asshole for taking before talking, even if enforcement's on his side, and he should still be petitioned if for no other reason than to encourage the staff to change the way they enforce outdoor camps.

[NegaStoat]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's certainly a point of contention I'd have with outdoor camp enforcement, assuming that's still the way it's enforced. But in that case everything I've said thus far rings just as true - that person is still just as big of an asshole for taking before talking, even if enforcement's on his side, and he should still be petitioned if for no other reason than to encourage the staff to change the way they enforce outdoor camps.

Pretty true. I think the lesson I learned after the above event with the dock dwarf camp was to take the time to take a screenshot with a time stamp when you're done breaking a camp and have it secure, every time. Later, if an issue pops up immediately take another set of screnshots with the chat window as events unfold. Try to be diplomatic, but don't give an inch on a camp consisting of 4 spawns or less within LOS of each other. If the player doesn't take the hint, name and shame on the RnF boards if the other player is being completely unreasonable and smug.

The server staff might not enforce the topic of camps, but player reputation still counts for something. Just make an effort of being patient and making it an open and shut case that the other player is a choad.

[QFuzzle]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

I wonder if it would have been a different story if it were you and a buddy (thus a "group") camping those dwarves in exactly the same manner, instead of just you.

Hmm...

[Xaanka]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

played on red for years and literally never had to think this many words about the camp rules

[indiscriminate_hater]

Originally Posted by Xaanka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

played on red for years and literally never had to think

[A1rh3ad]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

Imo he was just asking for one. I would have been the nice guy and given him two on the ends to pull while i easily camped the two close together, but that's just me. If he just wanted to camp one I believe that would be more than fair. Those dwarves are pretty spread out. Thats like kiting a whole line more than a camp.