List System

[Enshadowed]

The stories coming out of the Manastone camp are pretty concerning. Staying glued to your computer, unable to afk for more than 15 minutes at a time, for over two days in some cases, is going to get someone seriously hurt. This is madness.

"Then don't camp it!" I hear some of you saying. There's no way in hell I would right now, even if I were of the appropriate level to try. I'm not posting this for myself; I just don't want to see any dead nerds over an elf pixel. And I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest that's where we're heading, especially as more people join the queue, should the list system stay as-is.

I'm not a dev, nor do I totally understand how complicated any of this is or is not, but here's my proposal:

1. Take away the AFK checks.
   
   
2. Make the corpse FFA once the expiration reaches one minute.
   
   
3. If your IP changes after camping out, going LD, etc, your position on the list is forfeit.
   
   
4. Root the mobs in question, or code the corpse to slingshot back to spawn point.
   
   
5. Permanent character lockout for each legacy item.

Let people afk. You'll still need to pay attention incase of a group wipe, group leaves, or your item drops. But it wouldn't be the dangerous level of commitment we're looking at now. People are seriously risking their health over legacy items, or have the unfair advantage of multiple people account sharing to take their turns in shifts. Let's not wait for the worst to happen to make some changes.

This obviously creates new problems, like having 60+ people on the list for any given item. There's no perfect system, but I feel like permanent character lockout, and being unable to play your account for however many days you're AFK on the list, would be pretty self-regulating.

The list system was a wonderful idea, and I'm so glad they tried something. But I think a few tweaks would go a long way for the health and safety of everyone.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc to access the char on the list and go through the afk checks. Checking IP, or even machine ID etc will do nothing. It has no reason to change under these circumstances, and people can spin up as many VMs and bring as many characters over that they want. This makes this an enterprise to share between 2-3 friends working in shifts to grind that one character to the top position and get their manastone. People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest. I'm sure they had someone pick up 5 hours here or there so they could get a nap in, likely through the more conventional method of just ld and have them log in from another computer altogether. When the reality of this settles in, it will be understood that sleep coverage will just be a necessity and that is how the camp will proceed.

My biggest concern, though, is when you have 2-3 people working shifts on a host machine via teamviewer, it starts to get awfully tempting to, instead of clicking one characters afk box, to start clicking several characters at once. Completely untraceable. IP address and machine/game ID, whatever other external methods of tracking, are never changed.

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

Luckily its not the earths gold or oil reserves we are talking about.

If people want to become Mr Robot and destroy their bodies with lack of sleep or become human MMPORG relay teams to get a classic item it seems more trouble than its worth trying to stop them.

Considering the devs dont get paid for the benefit i can understand why they are not breaking their backs to do it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[hotkarlmarxbros]

Originally Posted by Hoppkins_Wytchfinder [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If people want to become Mr Robot and destroy their bodies with lack of sleep or become human MMPORG relay teams to get a classic item it seems more trouble than its worth trying to stop them.

I think maybe I didn't make my point as clearly as I meant to. The rules as intended will require this relay race. I don't really care about that, the rules are outlined clearly, everyone has to adhere to that, do what you can to get your piece within that ruleset. Whatever.

The problem, though, is that these rules that were laid out do not account for how people would go about doing this. And when you start sharing one account via Teamviewer across a few people to grind to their manastone, you start realizing how viable it is to do this same mundane task across several accounts, untraceable without direct human intervention. This implementation actively encourages boxing, something the admins have repeatedly stated they are vehemently against.

The original idea of rarity being enforced via having only a tiny spigot trickling out content that people will promptly sit on top of and stopper up is dated and terrible. You want to gate content? Make it harder. You want to make something exclusive? Make it competitive. This list system is an extension of a nascent idea to make something exclusive or rare, and it's shit. Zero improvement. Classic for the sake of being classic. You think the classic devs would've had half of these mechanics in the game if they knew a better way? They were pioneers. I respect the hell out of all these ideas, but to say that's the best way to maximize the fun/engagement/competitiveness/whatever is just wrong.

We saw this from the initial blowback p99 admins got from the removal of the pet window. People don't want to play a game because it's classic, they want to play it because it's good. P99 team, in all their hubris, mistook their inheritance of a AAA designed game from an era before DLC, RMT, loot boxes, etc for the idea that "just keeping it classic" was what was making p99 good. The game isn't good because it's classic, the game is good because of all the time and effort that went into it to make it good.

I'm straying a bit from my point, which is this: the list system is shit. And, to make matters worse, this shit list system is actively encouraging boxing that is currently untrackable from any of their automated methods. Which means an increase in the amount of boxing. Which means that some limited items are going to be obtained by these boxers, therefore some legitimate players are going to miss out on them. Not addressing this quickly and effectively runs the risk of turning the server into a circus that the exploiters don't take seriously and the legit players don't want to play on.

[Cen]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc rerouting the MD5 hash to access the server icon laser space explosion doritos inserted into their own ..... gobsmacked.

Okay how many people are doing this versus not, let alone know what the hell any of this is your talking about.

I dont think 99% of the playerbase is elite hax0r

[Ataria]

Originally Posted by Cen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay how many people are doing this versus not, let alone know what the hell any of this is your talking about.

I dont think 99% of the playerbase is elite hax0r

Agreed! I am not one of these. I have been 35, and I am dreading that list, I keep waiting for a day where I have had a solid good sleep and feel like it would be a day I could stay awake for a long period. I want a manastone, and I can push 24 hours awake, maybe 30, sadly I do not think I could do more than this. Not sure what the solution would be, given that it all "needs" to be classic.

I wish it could just be taken out or a higher drop rate until it is taken out, or I dunno.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest.

Lol.

Of fucking course they're not.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by hotkarlmarxbros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc to access the char on the list and go through the afk checks. Checking IP, or even machine ID etc will do nothing. It has no reason to change under these circumstances, and people can spin up as many VMs and bring as many characters over that they want. This makes this an enterprise to share between 2-3 friends working in shifts to grind that one character to the top position and get their manastone. People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest. I'm sure they had someone pick up 5 hours here or there so they could get a nap in, likely through the more conventional method of just ld and have them log in from another computer altogether. When the reality of this settles in, it will be understood that sleep coverage will just be a necessity and that is how the camp will proceed.

My biggest concern, though, is when you have 2-3 people working shifts on a host machine via teamviewer, it starts to get awfully tempting to, instead of clicking one characters afk box, to start clicking several characters at once. Completely untraceable. IP address and machine/game ID, whatever other external methods of tracking, are never changed.

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

Can someone translate this from Neckbeard into English for me?

[toasteroven]

Which is worse?

A. Players who take turns on one account

B. People who RDP and control multiple characters at once

C. One person staying awake for 100+ hours

You can't bash the players for responding to the system. You have to redesign it. If this was a real camp you would pass it on to someone else who may not even be logged in, out of the zone, or AFK up until that point. When it's their turn they would be called to the camp. That person would then start their grind for the next 5 - 30 hours. This sounds more reasonable than one person spending an entire week here, which is the projected time as of now.

There's no reason for the next person on the list to be here until it's their turn

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by toasteroven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which is worse?

A. Players who take turns on one account

B. People who RDP and control multiple characters at once

C. One person staying awake for 100+ hours

You can't bash the players for responding to the system. You have to redesign it. If this was a real camp you would pass it on to someone else who may not even be logged in, out of the zone, or AFK up until that point. When it's their turn they would be called to the camp. That person would then start their grind for the next 5 - 30 hours. This sounds more reasonable than one person spending an entire week here, which is the projected time as of now.

There's no reason for the next person on the list to be here until it's their turn

#1 and #2 because they're gaming the system.

Nobody is going to stay awake for 100 hours. Maybe some people will manage 48. Few will last even 24. This would thin the camp out, which is fine, if we didn't have people gaming the system.