Making grouping great again

[Stonewallx39]

Just read a thread in RnF, don’t ask my why I’m a masochist, with a bunch of people sharing (crying) how grouping seems broken on P99.

If incentivizing grouping is the goal, as it should be, the best way to do it would be through manipulating ZEMs and group XP bonus.

Simply increase the group XP bonus substantially something like 25% for two, 50% for 3, 75% for 4, 100% for 5, and 150% for a full group. Then cut all ZEMs in half and watch as Soloers fly into groups.

[azxten]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

[Tunabros]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

and everyone laughed

[Stonewallx39]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

That would make the game less fun. You don’t like fun, or is that just enjoy ruining other peoples fun?

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Stonewallx39 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That would make the game less fun. You don’t like fun, or is that just enjoy ruining other peoples fun?

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle...f_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

[ReoDobbs]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle...f_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

So much of this is so subjective drivel with sprinkles of more subjectivity (trying to be disguised as "fact")about how you think human behavior works.

Even if it wasn't none of this would be solved by nerfing solo xp and forcing people to group

[azxten]

Originally Posted by ReoDobbs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So much of this is so subjective drivel with sprinkles of more subjectivity (trying to be disguised as "fact")about how you think human behavior works.

Even if it wasn't none of this would be solved by nerfing solo xp and forcing people to group

Most of what I wrote there is just established game design concepts and how it relates to P99. Some of it is subjective.

azxten you sure do like to write huge essays that no one will read

Funny I even get PMs from people telling me they like what I write. I wonder if you do.

Seriously!? What did you even say? TLDR (I honestly tried but couldn’t get through it).

Let me translate it into Twitterese for you...

You suck at video games and I don't, too bad for you.

People don't play video games for the same reasons and get enjoyment from different aspects of a game.

That was 157 characters. I'm glad Twitter seems to have increased the limit to 280 but I probably still got dangerously close to confusing you. Also that was kind of some big words for you probably let me try again.

Ahem...

u bad at game but me not bad, ha!

sum lik gam 4 many fun cuz not only 4 u fun cuz

Probably shouldn't have used the comma. Let me try again...

u bad and never get gud

Solid.

[Stonewallx39]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle...f_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

Seriously!? What did you even say? TLDR (I honestly tried but couldn’t get through it).

If small changes to how xp is gained could have meaningful impacts driving classic gameplay, that would be in line would the vision for this project. It might even make this *multiplayer game* more fun and engaging!

It also wouldn’t hurt to have more people practice socializing before reaching end-game. Understanding and empathizing with your opponent, because you’ve grouped together while coming, up would be huge in minimizing toxicity.

[Lich]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle...f_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

You sound like a psychopath.

[Delekhan]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

I could get behind this channelling narrative if every other caster xp mob didn't gate and every single wizard exp mob in the higher levels drops ice comets non-stop. Leave it alone it's already unclassic anyway.