Racism: the Dying Regime

[Rhuma7]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're putting the cart way ahead of the horse, friend.

First of all, racism in America is the expression of a racial supremacist ideology through power and force. In this way, only white people (being the dominant group for multiple centuries) can actually be racist. You're claiming that everybody is prejudiced and holds unknown bias deep in their hearts. That's not racism. A "black person" being distrustful of white people because they've been marginalized their entire lives and their parents were victims of systematic and institutional racial violence by the police during the Civil Rights era is not "racism." It's just not. We're all participants and victims of a racist social order. Individuals are not "racist." We all contribute to it in our own ways.

That being said, the way a society progresses is not to jump from one generation of being attacked by the police for wanting the right to vote into the next where nobody recognizes or sees skin color. That's naive and deluding yourself if you actually believe anybody can actively not see skin color. It is intimately tied into our socialization and how we categorize our world and understanding of it, especially as Americans. Our entire national history is a story of race and struggle, almost entirely.

We can't simply go from centuries of enforced white supremacy to saying, "Oh, well shit, sorry about that guys! Let's just not see race anymore because that's easier for us to repent for the past and not own up to the horrors this country was built upon."

To pretend skin color doesn't exist is an egregious crime because it denies people the ability to reconcile the past, come to terms with our collective history, and move onward from it. We're not there yet, and to jump into color-blindness would do everyone, especially the victims of racial injustice, a grave disservice.

Racism will never be obsolete. The words white/black/african-america/hispanic in itself is racism.

Did you even read the post or just make wild assumptions? My post wasn't a "if we do this and that there wont be any racism" I'm telling you that the way we have learned to "categorize" skin color is inherently racist and saying only negative racism is racism is silly.

Whats the difference between saying "That ****** is smart!" and "That african american is smart!" Their both a name for a race, which is redundant, when the same can be said as "That guy/woman is smart!" with the exception one is clearly "racist" as you would put but as a whole, their racist on the fact that the color of his skin was brought to a point and somehow had any relation to the compliment.

[Ahldagor]

welcome to the effects of specificity. gotta love those post-Socratic thinkers

[Malice_Mizer]

Originally Posted by Rhuma7 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did you even read the post or just make wild assumptions? My post wasn't a "if we do this and that there wont be any racism" I'm telling you that the way we have learned to "categorize" skin color is inherently racist and saying only negative racism is racism is silly.

Whats the difference between saying "That ****** is smart!" and "That african american is smart!" Their both a name for a race, which is redundant, when the same can be said as "That guy/woman is smart!" with the exception one is clearly "racist" as you would put but as a whole, their racist on the fact that the color of his skin was brought to a point and somehow had any relation to the compliment.

How is that even racism? It's not. It's a stupid thing to say, and not coming from the right place ultimately, but it's simply not racist. If you're saying that there is no substantial difference between the word "******" and "African-American," I'd say you're really out of touch with reality. "African-American" is an identity to which many black people in America subscribe. "******" is a historical racial slur used by white people for centuries with a shit-ton of baggage, all of which you apparently don't understand.

"There isn't suppose to be any differences lol

You're reply is exactly what I was talking about, how the general consensus of america is there is a race difference which = racism."

I don't think you understand the debate going on in the real world about race in America. We all have different histories. We all participate in the American story in a vastly different way. Our cultures have developed differently because we've lived almost entirely separate lives (enforced by the white establishment) for centuries. Our historical and cultural reference points are different. Our relationship to the government and authority is very, very different. The way we understand our place in the world is also very different. To say that there are no differences is another lie you're telling yourself to diffuse a heated topic. I think I understand your intention and ultimately believe you're coming at this from the right place. I used to think like you, too, and idealistically I do. But there is a path to get there, and it's not something we can all just jump into, pretending that skin color doesn't affect the way we understand society and our place in it. That takes generations to overcome, not just high-theory about what's technically right.

[Ahldagor]

generations to overcome is the key there ^^^
not going away over night, and at the same time we have to continue the work

[Rhuma7]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

HI think I understand your intention and ultimately believe you're coming at this from the right place. I used to think like you, too, and idealistically I do. But there is a path to get there, and it's not something we can all just jump into, pretending that skin color doesn't affect the way we understand society and our place in it. That takes generations to overcome, not just high-theory about what's technically right.

Im glad you can see through the post to the real thought behind it. It is quite hard to express this in words while dreadlands crashed and everyone got summoned to KC and me going wtf!?

As long as people can look at a dark skinned person and give him a title of race other than human, racism will exist, good or bad. I believe this was a point in MLK Jr's speech IIRC.

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by Rhuma7 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As long as people can look at a dark skinned person and give him a title of race other than human, racism will exist, good or bad. I believe this was a point in MLK Jr's speech IIRC.

It goes the other direction as well. If you think adopting a 'blame whitey' mentality is some form of progress you're living in a comic book. Blaming the son for the sins of the (Great grand) father is not progress no matter which way you look at it.
Switching from trying to raise one group to trying to put down the group near the top is not progress either, the women's rights movement proved that when it changed it's direction and nearly all momentum it had ceased.

The reason we can't "all just get along" isn't because some white people are descended from people who used to own black people, it isn't because some black people are descended from people who were once 'property'. The reason we can't get along is because groups on all sides hold grudges.

[Vineyea]

Originally Posted by myriverse [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not racist to acknowledge the differences. It's just racist to think one is better than another.

Yeah, and really it should be the prerogative of everybody to get their ideas and opinions in tune with the larger historical context. We should be, as people in a society, aware of the significance of our institutions-- what they do, why they're there and we should be able to unify this with what we know about other things. There shouldn't be a conflict in my understanding of biology and my relation to social mores simply because the later are traditional de facto statements.

Isaac Newton is perhaps the most famous philosopher and physicist next to Einstein. During the enlightenment era, newton penned a work that radically changed how people come to understand their relation to the cosmos. He brought into the capacities of the limited human mind three laws that describe everything in the world we see. He upset an old order, he bequeathed a tool that still works just fine today. People do not need other reasons for why the world behaves as it does because of this foundation that after which we witnessed the explosion of knowledge and power we're still trying to fully integrate with today.

So, I guess I would say there's something a little intellectually dishonest about people who hold opinions based on the power of willful ignorance. I'm not saying people can't be dishonest, I'm not saying people can't voice the results. I'm saying there are domains of knowledge we can't ignore.

It's essential to unify what we know about the world with our society, institutions, and even ourselves. That's something people do out of habitual practice anyway, so I guess it's just a matter of time until we can feel at home in the world.

[Malice_Mizer]

Black representatives sitting in Congress were beaten by police officers for marching for their rights and to end the century of Jim Crow that emerged after slavery.

I'm confused how you always turn this into an exclusively "slavery" conversation. That's part of the root, but it's not the whole story. Not even close. If white America had atoned for their sins after slavery, then we'd be on a totally different course of history today. But they didn't. They were proud and in slavery's stead erected a social and economic order that was a different form of slavery that existed as a matter of law until 50 years ago.

When there are still people that, as young adults, experienced the horrors of the Civil Rights era and the face that white America showed them at the time, you cannot claim that there's just this "grudge" that they have that they need to get over. That's plainly wrong, and a self-serving attitude to take.

I'm not saying that you personally have done anything "bad" to a "black person". That's not for me to say, because I know very little about you. But we're still the effective inheritors of a society and government that in the recent past, extending into the distant past, committed horrible crimes against humanity, for which we've had to pay very, very little. We threw them a bill or two in the 60's, some token references, some lip-service, and have largely let the issue fester and remain neglected.

Statistically speaking, institutional racism is still alive and well in America. There is absolutely no denying that. Individual discretion permeates every level of authority, and it's often influenced by unseen bias and socialized fear and/or malice towards certain groups of people.

[Malice_Mizer]

Flounder.

[Kagatob]

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not saying that you personally have done anything "bad" to a "black person". That's not for me to say, because I know very little about you. But we're still the effective inheritors of a society and government that in the recent past, extending into the distant past, committed horrible crimes against humanity, for which we've had to pay very, very little. We threw them a bill or two in the 60's, some token references, some lip-service, and have largely let the issue fester and remain neglected.

The idea of having to pay for the actions of previous generations is as outdated as the extinct institutions you are so obsessed over. You just don't seem to understand that holding onto both grudges and guilt moves people and society as a whole backwards on all of these issues.