Sirken's proposal

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players. So complex interdependence has broken down on the server a good bit, but it also hangs on as many people are here due to nostalgia for this experience. EQ officially destroyed it with the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge, which gimped a lot of the player interdependence. It was around that time, I believe, that they went to instanced raiding as well. Plane of Time, aye?

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

I actually had very similar thoughts running through my head randomly yesterday, though mostly in the context of class interactions not levels and such. A game like WoW might "gain" something with more mechanics used in every fight, but it loses even more by removing some of the roles EQ had (debuffer, buffer, CCer, puller)... and that makes the game more boring when there are only 3 roles and their interactions with each other are very limited in scale compared to when you have 7+.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

T1 guilds working probably 100X as hard for 6-7x more and that's if the tiers stay this way into the future. seems fair.

If you're being sarcastic (difficult to tell over text): Hardcore guilds get their fun out of doing that. If you don't, enjoy it the casual way. For many other people, this is work and not a game. Instead, they'd rather have fun building alliances, maintaining rotations and peace between a coalition of guilds, introducing new raid guilds to the content, and things of that nature.

There are two indivisible types of raider on this server. Casuals don't work less hard, they work harder in different ways, because they want a different experience. Maintaining a rotation is not simple. Maintaining an alliance or an agreement is not simple. It's herding cats. But that is fun to a different type of person from those who find it fun to do all the work hardcore raiders do. So, no, that is not fair.

You want fairness? Read John Rawl's A Theory Of Justice. Not only is he one of the most renowned political philosophers of the 20th century, but he has a definition of fairness that persists to this day, even making it into a recent episode of Doctor Who as a means of conflict resolution. What is fairness? Fairness is if you make people bargain in which they do not know what their bargaining positions are. Meaning, if you can abstract yourself for a moment, and think what agreement would people come to if they didn't know if they were hardcore or casual, or if they were in a hardcore or casual guild? What policies would be implemented? That's the crux of fairness, as it isn't skewed by individual bias, not by superior bargaining position. And in such a case, the staff plan which provides for the 6-7x more mobs would probably be seen as unfair in the eyes of people in an original position, as it gives too much. No rational person betting on whether they would be hardcore or casual, and in one of 3, or one of 7, would create rules so skewed. But the casuals here have accepted that.

That's 30-35 a month for T1, and 5 for T2. So, 1 a day vs 1.25 a week, per guild. Or, for the competitive side, 3 pops a day approximately to fight over. That's not a bad compromise. Let T1 shape the way they want to use their share of the mobs, and T2 shape the way they want to use their share of the mobs. If the casuals want to rotate, let them rotate. If the hardcores want to FFA, let the hardcores FFA. That's more than enough to rotate, and more than enough to FFA.

We want a chance to earn our epics, and we want a fair share of those mobs. VP was surrendered as your playground, but things like CT/Inny/Trak... People like me do a lot of work in this game, but don't want your atmosphere. To say we have to delve into your atmosphere for the sake of achieving our goals is counter productive to the goals of lessening the conflicts between guilds. The hardcore atmosphere is toxic to me. The casual atmosphere would probably be toxic to you. The best way to reduce conflicts between guilds are to keep ideologically opposite groups separated in such a way that they can each enjoy the atmosphere they love most, without either side's atmosphere hurting the other. Let each enjoy their half. That's what Rogean's plan provides for. It lets each side enjoy their half, and leaves VP alone for now, and for when we get keys, unless we want to delve into your territory, and compete on your terms. Hardcores get to have the environment they want, and casuals get the environment they want.

This is not only just, it is fair, and it has the best chance at creating a longer lasting reduction of conflict between guilds, by letting each side experience the raiding atmosphere they want, without being detrimental to the other in any way other than sharing the pops. It even bumps back to Tier 1 if a Tier 2 raid takes too long to get it, depending on how Tier 2 decides to allocate pops for themselves. Seeking more than this seems less about wanting competition (which the plan provides for), and more about wanting schadenfreude. And that really isn't helpful to us all enjoying the game in our own ways.

So far, the best argument I have heard is that if FE + IB unite, then by Rogean's written plan (as it stands), it'd be a rotation in Tier 1, since if you previously got the kill, you can't get it again when it comes back to your tier. But I am certain no Tier 2 guild is going to care how Tier 1 handles their pops. If it bounces back to Tier 1, I am sure no one will mind letting it be FFA for the Tier 1 guilds, whether it be a 3 way fight, or a 2 way fight with the IB + FE coalition. So, that's an easy fix to let hardcores get their environment, and let casuals build theirs.

Now, if you were not being sarcastic, I agree, because that's what they find to be fun. And this is a game about fun. So to each their own. Different styles for different people.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I actually had very similar thoughts running through my head randomly yesterday, though mostly in the context of class interactions not levels and such. A game like WoW might "gain" something with more mechanics used in every fight, but it loses even more by removing some of the roles EQ had (debuffer, buffer, CCer, puller)... and that makes the game more boring when there are only 3 roles and their interactions with each other are very limited in scale compared to when you have 7+.

WoW really did lose a lot. I notice that a lot of the difference in WoW and EQ has to do with CC and the necessity for it. One thing you could never do in WoW is Fear Kite, because CC breaks on damage. In EQ, it has a chance to break on damage (unless a mez, etc), so you can create some useful, interesting strategies for engaging mobs that are actually equally as strong as you are. A level 50 character versus a level 50 mob... That's a dangerous fight, lol. Not so in modern MMOs. It is quite sad.

[Jorgam]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

[Obrae]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

You have valid points. There would be challenges in regards to who/when and with what they could take. And I also appreciate all that the staff does for free/love of the game! =)

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

[CodyF86]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Not even directed specifically at any of your points in that post, but your attitude
is part of the problem.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[fullmetalcoxman]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Yea, except this is a fucking game, not real life. Raiding isn't supposed to be a second god damned job.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Obrae [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.