What is BDA doing to work towards a raid agreement?

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as for moving between tiers, I think with stealin's system and guild can voluntarily move tiers, provided they aren't active in VP, as long as they are forced to wait 1 month to switch from their declaration of wanting to switch, to prevent tier hopping.

This is what you have

T1 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3
T2 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3

VP is FFA as well as 1/3 of the Inny/CT/VS/Trak spawns.


T1 is more "competitive" and stands to gain the FFA targets more (they put their money where their mouth is)
T2 is more leaning towards a rotation and don't stand to gain as much among each other.

The top tier mobs that FE/TMO/IB want Inny/CT/VS/Trak (which has been the reason every proposal has failed almost) basically have their rule set applied twice (unless they decide to change their FFA mentality)

FE/TMO/IB would be retarded to not take this proposal, unless they are afraid to lose the FFA rounds.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think that's going to fly. I think an overall baglimit and letting every guild go for whatever is the only way it's going to work.

I personally would love to see guilds(other than tmo/fe/ib) going into VP to kill targets on repop days without having to deal with TMO/FE/IB breathing down their necks and at the same time not having to worry about getting promoted out of their bracket.

TL;DR, I don't think T1 guilds should be forced to kill VP and I don't think T2 guilds should be punished for attempting VP (on repops at least).

yeah, its a tough matter of opinion. i think that right now only bda is capable of going into vp, and chest has said they'd just as well stay out of vp.

if you are going to put a mob limit and time lock out, i think you need to add in that its not a 2hour from repop lockout, but a 2hour from last kill lockout. otherwise if 2 vp mobs are left up, tmo/fe will have a field day with who gets first engage. but if we know that tmo killed two vp dragons b4 fe did, then they get first shot by default. i just really want to avoid any situation where a mob is 95% of the time going to be up and FTE will be open at a set time, which is likely for vp mobs.

on a repop PD will be the hardcores first choice, if it wasn't, hardcores would jump guilds imo. finishing vp after pd makes sense to me from the standpoint of a raider who hasn't cleared VP ad nausium. I can see where tmo might not like this idea, for understandable reasons.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is what you have

T1 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3
T2 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3

VP is FFA as well as 1/3 of the Inny/CT/VS/Trak spawns.


T1 is more "competitive" and stands to gain the FFA targets more (they put their money where their mouth is)
T2 is more leaning towards a rotation and don't stand to gain as much among each other.

The top tier mobs that FE/TMO/IB want Inny/CT/VS/Trak (which has been the reason every proposal has failed almost) basically have their rule set applied twice (unless they decide to change their FFA mentality)

FE/TMO/IB would be retarded to not take this proposal, unless they are afraid to lose the FFA rounds.

your proposal sounds good to me, but i'm not an officer, and i'm also pretty flexible at this point cause i just want to have fun and not bicker on the forums.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah, its a tough matter of opinion. i think that right now only bda is capable of going into vp, and chest has said they'd just as well stay out of vp.

if you are going to put a mob limit and time lock out, i think you need to add in that its not a 2hour from repop lockout, but a 2hour from last kill lockout. otherwise if 2 vp mobs are left up, tmo/fe will have a field day with who gets first engage. but if we know that tmo killed two vp dragons b4 fe did, then they get first shot by default. i just really want to avoid any situation where a mob is 95% of the time going to be up and FTE will be open at a set time, which is likely for vp mobs.

on a repop PD will be the hardcores first choice, if it wasn't, hardcores would jump guilds imo. finishing vp after pd makes sense to me from the standpoint of a raider who hasn't cleared VP ad nausium. I can see where tmo might not like this idea, for understandable reasons.

Imagine it like this. You have BDA who has keys, FE/TMO/IB all bag'd out and mobs still in vp.

BDA hosts a VP on a repop day and allows other t2 guilds to bring their VP keyed characters to experience VP and BDA uses their baglimit in VP.

I think it's incredibly reasonable.

Chest, his guild, and T2 guys from other guilds get to experience VP without TMO/FE/IB in the mix and without punishment of "advancing to a toxic bracket". I think Chest would like that, as well as the other T2 guys.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine it like this. You have BDA who has keys, FE/TMO/IB all bag'd out and mobs still in vp.

BDA hosts a VP on a repop day and allows other t2 guilds to bring their VP keyed characters to experience VP and BDA uses their baglimit in VP.

I think it's incredibly reasonable.

Chest, his guild, and T2 guys from other guilds get to experience VP without TMO/FE/IB in the mix and without punishment of "advancing to a toxic bracket". I think Chest would like that, as well as the other T2 guys.

same scenario, remove the "moving tiers" thing for repops, and bda+randoms can go for VP ez mobs (SW is best bet) while tmo/fe race for PD. We'll want to get to PD asap, and if gms are serious about no training, should be a "non toxic" environment

[Handull]

and if epics are their concern, they'll all be going for non-vp targets anyway.

[uygi]

Chest, you're still the best friend I have on this server. You know as well as I do that BDA is capable of competing with just about any guild; the issue is that you don't want the level of poop intensity historically required. Beyond any lawyered out rules, both TMO and FE have made it clear we're hoping to un-poop things because the extremes of the one-upsmanship game are, as you and so many others are quick to point out, absolutely fucking stupid. Nobody blames you for not wanting to, and you've made it clear over the last 2.5 weeks that BDA is certainly capable when they choose to make the effort.

When TMO got raid suspended you came to me looking to open up some dialog, and that's exactly what happened and a good thing came about. The idea behind having an agreement isn't supposed to be about legislating exactly who gets what when and how. The idea is to clean up what is currently a toxic environment, and to allow some access to content for guilds willing to do an appropriate amount of work. Nobody is insisting that 4AM batphones, instant engages with endless DA stalls or VP trainwars are appropriate, because just about everyone agrees that things have gone way too far. You reached out to me and FE to foster a non-toxic environment, even temporarily, and it honestly worked out pretty well. BDA ended up with a large share of mobs, and guilds willing to do a modicum of work got in a kill or three.

I personally think that guilds willing to go to greater lengths need to be rewarded with a larger share of the pie. If we're REALLY trying to split all the guilds into two categories, BDA is a strong contender to be in the top tier. Set head-to-head, BDA would have no trouble defeating the IB of today, and over the last year there have been a lot of mob pops that, had BDA been even loosely tracking, they could have mobilized to (without even having camped out) and gotten a kill on. The primary reason I left BDA was because there was virtually no will to put in even some effort to go after opportunistic situations. In the last... 5 months or so?.. BDA has put in effort to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves, and I've been really happy to see it. If the spirit of Rogean's original ultimatum gets followed at all, BDA will do just fine.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by Handull [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

same scenario, remove the "moving tiers" thing for repops, and bda+randoms can go for VP ez mobs (SW is best bet) while tmo/fe race for PD. We'll want to get to PD asap, and if gms are serious about no training, should be a "non toxic" environment

Yeah, nothing would stop BDA on repops to entering VP and going for targets (nor should it imo) right away.

I'm just saying, if he wanted to avoid them all together, he could hold his baglimit and then go or hit a target outside and then one in VP... or whatever.

The whole proposal is about dividing the different styles, keeping the competition between the styles, and remaining flexible and easy to follow.

I don't see a less complicated system that is anywhere as close to fair for all parties involved as this one.

[Handull]

Originally Posted by Autotune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, nothing would stop BDA on repops to entering VP and going for targets (nor should it imo) right away.

I'm just saying, if he wanted to avoid them all together, he could hold his baglimit and then go or hit a target outside and then one in VP... or whatever.

The whole proposal is about dividing the different styles, keeping the competition between the styles, and remaining flexible and easy to follow.

I don't see a less complicated system that is anywhere as close to fair for all parties involved as this one.

also can't igore that chest liked my idea :P

[Handull]

PS are we really making progress in this thread? it seems like it to me, which i find very exciting