Balance and game design : Why red got it right?

[innocent51]

Disclaimer : This is a not a thread about Red server.

I realised the xp bonus introduced on Red server makes perfect sense with EverQuest design and, even if it is not classic, it completely changes the whole balance of the game.

EverQuest always was a social game. It is about making friends (or at least contacts), getting to know people and stuff. On classic EQ you can solo, some class are good at it. After some point actually almost half the classes make better xp solonig. After 50ies on blue xp is so slow that you see more and more optimized trio/duo.

The xp bonus introduced on Red makes grouping with anyone always better. Even if on live you would be better off soloing separately the bonus on Red makes you do on improbable trios everyone trying to bring the less sucky they can do the team. But never mind if they are here, they bring the xp bonus anyway.

Anyone who ever played City of Heroes understand this feeling. Group members are never a weigh (ok unless that break mezes, train you and shit), they are always, even if not in an optimal way participating to the team effort. And it makes perfect sense with EQ's social, group grind oriented design.

I don't think EQ is meant to be a PvP game but this statement is very arguable. Its just a point a view. I really think this xp bonus should be introduced on Blue. Even if it means reducing the overall xp income (so people don't level too fast, EQ is meant to be slow, to take the time to do quest on the way, to travel through dangerous places and to farm cash to buy your new spells...).

It is not classic, it is meta-classic.

[Estu]

I think this is a very good point. The EXP bonus on Blue (and in classic EQ) was clearly meant to promote grouping; the problem is that it does not make up for the inevitable slower EXP that comes from most grouping (especially large groups) due to things like having to wait for pulls. You're absolutely right that a souped-up group EXP bonus on blue would not be classic but would definitely be in the spirit of the game.

[Tecmos Deception]

Eh.

I like the idea of groups being worthwhile in terms of XP. But I dislike the thought of an xp bonus making up for every member of a group playing well to try to get good xp, I dislike the thought of players grouping JUST because they get more XP that way (players should group because they want to group, not because they are crippling their XP if they don't), etc.

I'd be in favor of something like +10% xp in groups per member, but not the huge amount that red has. This would kind of take the sting out of a full group but without basically forcing people to play in full groups. It'd make groups more appealing, but without making the XP fast even if 4 of the 6 people are 3/4 AFK. Etc.

[Swish]

If you went to red to solo your way to 60 you're definitely doing it wrong... unless maybe you're playing a blue character and a red character at the same time [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A good XP rate brings people to red, there's no question about that.

[Splorf22]

The problem is that neither Classic nor Kunark was designed for a bunch of max level/max geared toons. For example, lets take a P1999 Sebilis Disco group. They are of course roflstomping the whole area D1/D2. We delevel everyone from 58ish to 53ish. We delete their epics. We delete their dragon haste. We delete their Fungi tunics. We delete their Kunark spells. Suddenly this group is going to find the content reasonably challenging even with the full 6 players.

I think Velious may see a bit of a return of the full group.

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think Velious may see a bit of a return of the full group.

I can just about bet that Velious will see a lot more grouping. There is very few mobs and very few classes that can solo Velious mobs. Mobs hit like hell and fights last a LONG time compared to Kunark.

Like I said in another thread, in Velious, Melee types run out of Hit Points, and Caster types run OOM. So XP will be slow as heck in Velious solo and even in groups people will run out on HP and Mana. Velious is a whole NEW game compared to Kunark. And dying in it is a LONG ASS run for a lot of people. There is only like 3 or 4 normal cities in the whole expansion to even get bound in. And NO noob zones either. And some zones are LONG as hell. You will wish you were a Bard lol. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Kika Maslyaka]

There shouldn't be any group XP bonus at all.
Just by being in a group already grants you tremendous bonuses:
-mutual protection and buffs from other classes
-ability to kill boss mobs
-chain pulling
-being able to survive in heavily npc-crowded places

Compare this to just being alone, getting swarmed by 2-3 mobs at a time and quickly dieing. Does grouping really needs more bonuses?
Of course the inherited problem of EQ that classes are unequal in both solo and group environment, which causes disparity.
If all classes would completely suck at soloing - only being able to solo low-blue mobs, no quading, no fear-kiting, EQ would truly be 100% group game.
Or make it more like WoW - everyone can solo trash, but group for dungeon runs.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There shouldn't be any group XP bonus at all.
Just by being in a group already grants you tremendous bonuses:
-mutual protection and buffs from other classes
-ability to kill boss mobs
-chain pulling
-being able to survive in heavily npc-crowded places

Compare this to just being alone, getting swarmed by 2-3 mobs at a time and quickly dieing. Does grouping really needs more bonuses?
Of course the inherited problem of EQ that classes are unequal in both solo and group environment, which causes disparity.
If all classes would completely suck at soloing - only being able to solo low-blue mobs, no quading, no fear-kiting, EQ would truly be 100% group game.
Or make it more like WoW - everyone can solo trash, but group for dungeon runs.

This is wrong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imo you're basically listing the reasons why full groups suck and calling them strengths. A good duo/trio doesn't have issues being overwhelmed or dropping boss mobs. Chain pulling isn't a bonus to a full group, it's a requirement in order to keep any kind of XP or loot flowing. Safety in numbers is a real thing, except that it USUALLY lulls members of a full group into complacency, imo.

[Swish]

Server pop had 60-70 people on after the original XP bonus got taken away.

Gotta throw the dog a bone.

[innocent51]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There shouldn't be any group XP bonus at all.
Just by being in a group already grants you tremendous bonuses:
-mutual protection and buffs from other classes
-ability to kill boss mobs
-chain pulling
-being able to survive in heavily npc-crowded places

Compare this to just being alone, getting swarmed by 2-3 mobs at a time and quickly dieing. Does grouping really needs more bonuses?
Of course the inherited problem of EQ that classes are unequal in both solo and group environment, which causes disparity.
If all classes would completely suck at soloing - only being able to solo low-blue mobs, no quading, no fear-kiting, EQ would truly be 100% group game.
Or make it more like WoW - everyone can solo trash, but group for dungeon runs.

This is, indeed, wrong.
Most classes can solo, half the classes for a better xp than full group.
Soloing is not hard, is not dangerous and for some grants you the ability to kill boss mobs (tho you have to define boss here).

When you go down to duo and trio you just can take anything if you have the proper classes/gear.


If I had to design a game I would make everyone completely unable to solo shit (and my game will probably close after 2 month because you have to care the bears). But it would take too much of EQ to make it such on P99 (remove spells? really?).
So the best thing to promote grouping, if you ever want to, is giving a large bonus to group xp.