religion

[leewong]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not trying to negate that fact, but merely overshadow it with the bigger and more important issues. The smaller issues shouldn't be ignored, but they should be secondary to the larger and more pressing ones.

These arent minor differences. Even within a society people can disagree so passionately that they start killing each other...aka the Civil War.

People having a different idea of when killing another is justified is not some minor nuance. It is a question every society and every human wrestles with and has differing opinions on.

[paulgiamatti]

Yes, but the American Civil War is a perfect example of something resulting from the pressing issues that I'm highlighting, not from something like capital punishment.

I'm not saying capital punishment, or gun control, or genital mutilation are minor nuances. I'm saying they are minor nuances in comparison to the massive atrocities that people are capable of committing against humanity.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then I'll simply ask if anyone else thought I was being unclear in my original statement that infractions like genital mutilation, though minor in the grand scheme of horrific crimes perpetrated upon humanity, are indeed immoral and reprehensible but shouldn't be the determining factor in whether a free state deserves a moral pass. If you can't see how that's relevant to universal morality, then that's no problem of mine.

I would rather go back to the original point as opposed to arguing semantics (not disregarding what you are saying, I in fact agree with most of it, it is not relevant to the original question is all).

The Religious claim is that either a. Morality is in our hearts because of God or b. Humans are universally immoral without the Bible. They pick one or the other depending on which suits their purposes at what time.

Secularists (I at least) are aware that while morality is something, it's a mere concept and is absolutely not universally uniform, but varying types of morality (universally?) exist among (most) animal species, man included. Is it hereditary or socially constructed or both? Honestly I have no fucking clue. I do know that hereditary morality would be subject to change in the same way that hair color, height, intelligence, etc. have variations within the same gene pool.

In short I think the original question was malformed.

[paulgiamatti]

I simply disagree with you when you say it's a mere concept, that's all. I think it's both a man-made concept as well as innate in us, and derived from our natural ability to love and be compassionate toward one another.

[iruinedyourday]

Morality is a survival instinct ffs. Its not some godly thing bestowed upon us.

The more moral you are the more you help the tribe survive the safer you are. Period.

[paulgiamatti]

So I agree with you in a sense that it's not universally uniform, because as we all know everyone possesses their own mind and their own circumstances in which they live. Some people end up sociopaths, others humanitarians.

I do think that as modern science progresses we'll end up finding ways to correct mental afflictions like sociopathy and psychopathy, which will curb the stigmatization surrounding such afflictions. But until then, we do have to live and find a way to deal with sickly people like Saddam Hussein, bin Laden, Stalin, Hitler and the like.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Morality is a survival instinct ffs. Its not some godly thing bestowed upon us.

The more moral you are the more you help the tribe survive the safer you are. Period.

That sounds too absolute though. Is it at times not more helpful for your tribe to wipe out a neighboring tribe whether it be competing for scarce resources or as a firm of self defense?

[leewong]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I simply disagree with you when you say it's a mere concept, that's all. I think it's both a man-made concept as well as innate in us, and derived from our natural ability to love and be compassionate toward one another.

Empathy is innate. Morality springs from empathy and our ability to reason...both being biological. So I would say it depends on where you draw the line.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Form*

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by leewong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Empathy is innate. Morality springs from empathy and our ability to reason...both being biological.

Yeah, I think this is a good way of putting it.