ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[Patriam1066]

We'll see. I definitely think she's a changed (for the better) version of Sansa. But I think that means she will become more manipulative and self aware, like Baelish. I'm not so certain that she will play a huge role in avenging the Starks. Will she elevate herself to a position of power? Sure, I could see that. But I think Jon Snow will be fighting the Others (in addition to whatever the hell else he can try to accomplish) and Arya will be doing the Stark vendetta killings.

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im thinking Baelish will use her in a plan, and she'll see an opportunity to let him die by not doing her part in the plan. its simple, sweet, and believable. i dont think book 6 Sansa will be anything like book 1 Sansa. shes one of the characters that has come a long long way in terms of "growing up" fast.

I could certainly see that happening, but my question is, if her choices are marrying Harry the Heir after Robin has some sort of untimely Baelish inspired accident, making her the 2nd/3rd (after Harry and Baelish) most powerful person in the Vale, would she throw that all away just to get revenge?

If anything, I think Sansa's transition has made her more like Baelish, rather than more like a Stark. I don't think she's worried about honor, but rather she's learning how to play the game of thrones, particularly how to gain power.

TLDR: I think Sansa will play the game as long as it continues to benefit her, whereas someone like Arya will be motivated purely out of righting past wrongs. When is the damned book coming out

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Sidelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed. I think it would be a mistake to underestimate sweet little innocent Sansa. All of the horrors she's been forced to endure since leaving Winterfell would have broken her if she were truly just the angsty, naive, shallow teenage girl from book one that we all thought she was. She is a survivor and I really believe she has it in her to become a major player in the Game - especially now, because of her proximity to Littlefinger. I think she is gonna learn a lot from "good ol' Uncle Littlefinger".

I am gonna be seriously disappointed if, for the rest of the series, she continues to be nothing but a powerless political pawn to be used by others. I wanna see Ginger Minge #2 (LoL) go on a sneaky rampage, slaying her enemies and getting some sweet revenge. It's probably too much to hope for, though. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah I agree with this completely. I just wonder what it actually means. Does it mean kill Baelish? Or does it mean use him like he's trying to use her? I'd lean towards the latter

[Mandalore93]

In the very specific mechanisms of the book, Littlefinger has very little reason to rape/rape marry Sansa. Within the medieval and even Renaissance it was very common to wife up your captive womenz pretty much instantly. One of the latest ones I can think of was King Gustav of Sweden before the Thirty Years Wars fucking up the Electorate of Brandenburg then fucking that guy's daughter after capturing her.

Edit: I think that with the way the plot narrative is going that it's very obvious that the Starks will unfortunately make a come back from their lackluster performance and Petyr will be sacrificed for the narrative. Very unfortunate. Realistically, a player of Petyr's skill would dangle Sansa infront of the Vale for as long as possible before marrying her himself. He would lose control of her (and the North) if she is married to Harry the heir.

[Patriam1066]

haha mandalore who are you for dude? Can't believe you guys like Stannis and Baelish, they remind me of Dick Cheney

Davos 2016.
As to what you're all saying about Sansa, I agree to a point. But the problem is, at least for book 6, how much can she really do? She can kill Baelish at will probably, but while the Iron Throne is in the hands of people who have a suspicion that Sansa was involved in Joffrey's assassination, she really doesn't have much going for her. She's safe in the Vale, but while there isn't more chaos in King's Landing, she doesn't have a good play outside of biding her time with Baelish. Why kill the only man who has a reason to keep you safe, when the rest of the realm, including lunatics like the Boltons, would like to marry her for Winterfell and the North?

I think it's far more likely that she will start manipulating Petyr, and depending on what transpires in the Winds of Winter, at some point in A Dream of Spring she can kill him or let him be killed.

As for Baelish' chances at winning in real life (as if this were a medieval fantasy instead of one with dragons), I don't know how much a lowborn man could accomplish. He could marry Sansa, and ascend the ladder that way, but what northern lord would kneel before him as the Warden of the North? I think Baelish is an interesting character who played his hand about as well as anyone did in ASOIAF, but unless he's working to put someone else on the throne, like Varys or something, I believe most of what he's done will ultimately be in vain. In that way, Martin did seem to make the books into something mirroring life (aside from magic/sorcery/undead/mythical creatures). Baelish' hubris, vanity, and ambition will get him killed, which is the case for a man like him. He is a man of many talents, but he never possessed wisdom. After all, we're all in agreement that the daughter of a girl he loved 20 something years ago is going to be his downfall. Talk about holding on past a point of being creepy... when a 16 year old girl is what gets you killed, you would not have been king in RL.

In contrast, Davos is wise, caring, has a huge dick (7 sons), and is legit as fuck. He obviously isn't going to sit the Iron Throne but I'm still cheering him on until he's 6 feet under.

I'm more or less being comical because I honestly have no idea what will happen, but I'd be SHOCKED if Baelish took the throne. Being clever and being wise are two different things, and most of the characters that we see fall are either honorable to the point of stupidity or immoral to the point of guaranteeing cosmic justice. Baelish seems to be the latter.

FINALLY, I listened to bryndenbfish or whatever's podcast on Dany's possible storyline in Book 6... seems very plausible. I hope to god he's wrong though

[Mandalore93]

Long term I don't see anyone but Jon sitting on the throne. He's also my favorite realistic candidate in terms of the novel. He's very progressive in his thinking. Very practical also.

I love Baelish because of how incredibly clever and opportunistic he is. He comes from nearly the bottom of the barrel (2nd generation noble of the lowest order) and is now Lord-Protector of the Vale, de facto Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands, and holds the (as far as the normal realm knows) heir to the north. Granted Sansa isn't the real heir since Bran and Rickon are alive. Granted if Robb's wishes are heeded then Jon takes precedence over them all seeing as he is the heir to the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands.

In terms of "real life" probability there aren't any true up start stories like his as far as I know in any of the "major" medieval kingdoms. Certainly none that are one generation with that kind of jump. Outside of medieval Europe, China has a few similar stories in Liu Bang (founder of Han) and Sima Yan (Founder of Jin). I also think we're placing a too high notion on the opinion of lords' honor. Historically and in the novels it's pretty clear that they can either be manipulated or bought off a lot of the time. These are two areas that Baelish excels at and he clearly has mad administrative skills to boot. I don't even think his obsession is with his "love" of Catelyn/Sansa but more his utter and complete hatred of being shunned for not being good enough for the nobles.

Only two I can really think of in Europe would be the Tudors (became kings through the female line of a legitimized bastard by killing the King of England at Bosworth Fields - More like Robert Baratheon) and the initial Capetians who I'm pretty sure were the mayors/nobles of Paris after the death of the last Carolingian King. After that almost all major royal lines in Europe come from cadet houses of either Hapsburg or Capetian.

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Mandalore93 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Long term I don't see anyone but Jon sitting on the throne. He's also my favorite realistic candidate in terms of the novel. He's very progressive in his thinking. Very practical also.

I love Baelish because of how incredibly clever and opportunistic he is. He comes from nearly the bottom of the barrel (2nd generation noble of the lowest order) and is now Lord-Protector of the Vale, de facto Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands, and holds the (as far as the normal realm knows) heir to the north. Granted Sansa isn't the real heir since Bran and Rickon are alive. Granted if Robb's wishes are heeded then Jon takes precedence over them all seeing as he is the heir to the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands.

In terms of "real life" probability there aren't any true up start stories like his as far as I know in any of the "major" medieval kingdoms. Certainly none that are one generation with that kind of jump. Outside of medieval Europe, China has a few similar stories in Liu Bang (founder of Han) and Sima Yan (Founder of Jin). I also think we're placing a too high notion on the opinion of lords' honor. Historically and in the novels it's pretty clear that they can either be manipulated or bought off a lot of the time. These are two areas that Baelish excels at and he clearly has mad administrative skills to boot. I don't even think his obsession is with his "love" of Catelyn/Sansa but more his utter and complete hatred of being shunned for not being good enough for the nobles.

Only two I can really think of in Europe would be the Tudors (became kings through the female line of a legitimized bastard by killing the King of England at Bosworth Fields - More like Robert Baratheon) and the initial Capetians who I'm pretty sure were the mayors/nobles of Paris after the death of the last Carolingian King. After that almost all major royal lines in Europe come from cadet houses of either Hapsburg or Capetian.

Nice historical context, I knew some of the european stuff but I'll confess I know nothing of Chinese history. Closest I ever got to "studying" the far east was reading about the Daimyo / Shogunate era of Japan, which was interesting, but it's more or less just feudalism + Samurai + Shinto as opposed to feudalism + chivalrous knights + the church.

I agree with you on Jon, he's my favorite realistic candidate for King, despite his numerous faults. I'd love Davos to somehow win, but that obviously has no basis in Westerosi reality.

My main issues with Baelish: yes, he's compelling, yes he's entertaining, and yes he has played the game well. But does anyone really think the man would make a good king? He's willing to start a civil war to advance himself. You're right about his motivations; he feels shunned by the nobility. I think he's aware that had he been the son of a great man, he would've been allowed to marry Catelyn, and more than just being bitter over her, he's bitter over his treatment from Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark. Regardless, bitterness doesn't make a good King. As far as I can see it, if Baelish gets a little bit smarter and a little less vain, he could become the legitimate ruler of the Vale. It would take some work, but he's a talented man, and could make it happen. I think he's going to get himself killed by trying to advance even further, and let's be honest, how could he possibly manipulate the Dornish, the Tyrells, etc, into supporting his claim for the Iron Throne. He could parley Sansa into taking the North and the Riverlands (until Bran/Rickon/Jon appear), but his behavior will inspire no loyalty. He's like Roose Bolton... no one is going to be following him unless they're plotting his overthrow in secret. I'm fairly certain he's advanced as far as he could have possibly hoped to, and it seems like for either lust over Sansa, or for power, he's going to get himself killed.

That said, I don't think Sansa takes him out, at least not in Book 6. I think Baelish is about to get manipulated by a clever girl who learned a lot in King's Landing.

[Mandalore93]

Ah! How could I forget Japan! The first person to ever unite the nation after a century of civil war rose from being a complete peasant! In fact all three of the unifiers rose from comparatively humble beginnings.

[Patriam1066]

Originally Posted by Mandalore93 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah! How could I forget Japan! The first person to ever unite the nation after a century of civil war rose from being a complete peasant! In fact all three of the unifiers rose from comparatively humble beginnings.

Haha. Did not know that. I bet he wasn't like Baelish though. Also, the Japanese, post unification, were big ass holes until after WW2. They did some pretty reprehensible shit to their neighbors. So I guess I'm wrong... maybe he was like Baelish.

[Mandalore93]

Mhhm, thinking of two different eras I think. Toyetomi Hideyoshi rose from a peasant to serving as Lord Oda Nobunaga's sandal bearer. He showed initiative and rose through the ranks to become one of his leading generals. After Oda committed suicide (to prevent being captured by Mitsuhide Akechi) Hideyoshi force marched his army to defeat Mitsuhide. At this point it was him and Ieyasu Tokugawa together who could unite Japan. They fought a campaign right around Owari in the 1580s/1590s. Ieyasu decided to give in and let Hideyoshi win, since he figured he was old and that would leave Ieyasu in position to take control: Which he did after the battle of Sekigahara in 1600. The Tokugawa Shogunate would rule Japan until the 1868 Meiji Restoration.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice historical context, I knew some of the european stuff but I'll confess I know nothing of Chinese history. Closest I ever got to "studying" the far east was reading about the Daimyo / Shogunate era of Japan, which was interesting, but it's more or less just feudalism + Samurai + Shinto as opposed to feudalism + chivalrous knights + the church.

I agree with you on Jon, he's my favorite realistic candidate for King, despite his numerous faults. I'd love Davos to somehow win, but that obviously has no basis in Westerosi reality.

My main issues with Baelish: yes, he's compelling, yes he's entertaining, and yes he has played the game well. But does anyone really think the man would make a good king? He's willing to start a civil war to advance himself. You're right about his motivations; he feels shunned by the nobility. I think he's aware that had he been the son of a great man, he would've been allowed to marry Catelyn, and more than just being bitter over her, he's bitter over his treatment from Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark. Regardless, bitterness doesn't make a good King. As far as I can see it, if Baelish gets a little bit smarter and a little less vain, he could become the legitimate ruler of the Vale. It would take some work, but he's a talented man, and could make it happen. I think he's going to get himself killed by trying to advance even further, and let's be honest, how could he possibly manipulate the Dornish, the Tyrells, etc, into supporting his claim for the Iron Throne. He could parley Sansa into taking the North and the Riverlands (until Bran/Rickon/Jon appear), but his behavior will inspire no loyalty. He's like Roose Bolton... no one is going to be following him unless they're plotting his overthrow in secret. I'm fairly certain he's advanced as far as he could have possibly hoped to, and it seems like for either lust over Sansa, or for power, he's going to get himself killed.

That said, I don't think Sansa takes him out, at least not in Book 6. I think Baelish is about to get manipulated by a clever girl who learned a lot in King's Landing.

im with you on Jon. and honestly, i can see Dany dying in some kind of way that will save all of the people. and for the record, i dont think baelish expects to be king, but again, i have no idea what that guy wants. i do however think however he knows theres limits to how far he can advance, and hes going to want to manipulate or influence events in such a way to place people there that like him. or do things for people to make them like him. baelish and the tyrells may not be pals, but they pulled off the purple wedding together [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]