Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Raev]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's how it works:

Every player earns .5dkp for every event they arrive to on time.
Every player earns 1 dkp for every hour spent at every raid.
Every player earns 2 dkp for every mob killed.?

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

• Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
• Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
• Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

[Llodd]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

• Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
• Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
• Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

Just the same as a loot council then. SO; in summary, both systems done appropriately are 'fair'.

Sorted.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's obvious that you have never run a guild before.

• Player X just spent 5 hours tracking. Should the contributions of trackers be valued more or less than raid hours?
• Tank X has 80% attendance while Tank Y has 20%. Tank X is busy upgrading all of his slots, but Y just wants to look cool in the tunnel with lightsabers. Is it really in the guild's best interests to give green dragon scales to Y?
• Rogue X averages 100 dps on Kunark targets, while rogue Y averages 50 (if you ever parse, you'll find its the same players who are at the top of the dps charts every time). Both players get the same DKP. Rogue X is justifiably pissed.

I could go on. The point is that DKP is a measurement of your contribution to the guild, and that measurement contains the bias. Not everything will make it into the DKP metric.

Your missing the point Raev. The point is that every member knows exactly what they can do to earn dkp and is free to do so. The system I posted was simple to illustrate that point. Sure you can add rules for all of the conditions that you listed and as long as you spell it out with a clearly defined rule, the outcome will not be biased. If you are just randomly awarding dkp for those activities though then it is really no different from loot council. There is only bias toward the individual if the rules are not applied uniformly.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even with your simple system of rules, which is orders of magnitude smaller than any working DKP system out there, you have already placed subjective value on being on time and for killing mobs. And if you had to actually run a guild, you would suddenly realize it is preferable to add several dozen more rules ranging from ways in which DKP can be earned (tracking is important) to how it can be spent (alts vs mains, app loots, long vacations, etc.)

Of course, but the outcome will ALWAYS be the same for EVERY individual the rule is applied to. That is by definition unbiased. What is so difficult here? This is actually starting to amuse me ^^ you can add all the rules you want, change all the values you like and so long as they all follow that format and are applied uniformly, guess what? It is fee of bias.

Your "Orruar gets all loot" rule doesn't work because persons named "Orruar" would realized different outcomes than those with different names and it is not possible to create characters with the same name. If however you revised the rule to:

"Characters named Orruar get all loot" AND If P99/EQ supported multiple characters with the the same name then, the rule is not biased because everyone is able to create a character named Orruar and receive loot. You would of course then have the problem of splitting loot amongst the Orruars who would undoubtedly form a loot council...

I do have to tip my hat to you for shifting the discussion to DKP [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] when were discussing Loot Council. It is entertaining though that you are now arguing DKP is subjective, the very quality that you insisted made loot council fairest of them all... Bravo!

[Pan]

At some point, the responsibility lies on the individual, too. I've known more than several people across various MMOs who would be victimized by any loot system...and, it turns out, by life itself - constantly.

And while both DKP and Loot Council systems have merits and proponents, there are just going to be times when stuff doesn't work out right even to the most unbiased eye. Shit happens. And when it does, it's up to the individual to determine how he/she will behave.

And that, to me, is probably the most important question when it comes to loot distribution. Are you guilded with a bunch of selfish drama vampires, or are you guilded with rational, sentient people who can work stuff out in the long term? Get that question right, and you've per-mitigated about 95pct of the drama that often is associated with loot in MMOs.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Llodd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just the same as a loot council then. SO; in summary, both systems done appropriately are 'fair'.

Sorted.

Pretty much. Such a simple concept to understand, and yet completely lost on some people...

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stuff

I feel like your mind is just going in circles at this point, so there's no real use to continuing the discussion. I'm glad you finally admitted that DKP is no more objective than a system where loot is distributed based on the character's name.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel like your mind is just going in circles at this point, so there's no real use to continuing the discussion. I'm glad you finally admitted that DKP is no more objective than a system where loot is distributed based on the character's name.

No worries Orruar ^^ I appreciate your efforts! Logic is a somewhat arcane concept for most and I've yet to find a reliable way to help others grasp it. The best advice I can offer is to avoid overthinking things and question everything ^^

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[*]Player X just spent 5 hours tracking.

o boy

[Kayd]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ROLEPLAY SCENARIO

Guild A gets a shot at Trakanon once every few months due to the raid scene on the server. Donal's BP drops, straight up /random happens, the cleric who logs in once a month for raids happens to win the BP over clerics who have been raiding consistently with the guild. In this exercise, you will roleplay a guild leader frantically trying to convince all those other clerics to remain with your guild and devising a new method of distributing high-value/high-rarity loot...

That depends on how many people in the guild are more casual players. If it's only a few then you are probably right. However, what we know about human nature says that random reinforcement is more effective at getting people to invest more time and effort, so if you have a high enough percentage of more casual players then you are more likely to get higher participation in events if more casual players have at least a non-zero chance of getting something great.