Isn't there a better way to distribute raid loot? If not which is most fair?

[Raev]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sure you can add rules for all of the conditions that you listed and as long as you spell it out with a clearly defined rule, the outcome will not be biased

Not really. Are you going to be the one to tell Rogue Y he only got 1/2 dkp because his DPS was sub par? OH BUT I WAS DRAGGING CORPSES AND ROGUE X WAS NOT, WHAT ABOUT THAT? AND WHAT ABOUT ROGUE Z WHO PLOWED ENRAGE? THAT MISTAKE COST US AT LEAST 30 SECONDS IN DOWNTIME!!! WHY WASN'T HE DOCKED?!!!

You end up with a million DKP rules that everyone will lawyer. Again, once the DKP is in the system everything is fair. But deciding who gets what DKP? That's where the subjectivity and bias come in.

Cloki has the right idea here: guild with smart/chill people and you'll be fine whether its loot council or DKP.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Kayd [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That depends on how many people in the guild are more casual players. If it's only a few then you are probably right. However, what we know about human nature says that random reinforcement is more effective at getting people to invest more time and effort, so if you have a high enough percentage of more casual players then you are more likely to get higher participation in events if more casual players have at least a non-zero chance of getting something great.

And thereafter you have an ever-changing cast of quasi-motivated randoms who have no real interest in learning/improving strategy & tactics and who also have no real commitment to making the guild better. Meanwhile the players who did want to do something requiring more personal investment than queuing up for a dungeon run with other randoms have all left for guilds that reward players who put effort into to making the guild better. Congratulations, you get to /ran armor drops in the planes once in a while when you happen to find them unoccupied and your guild never kills any dragon/god again because the motivated guilds have cleared all targets before you got around to bringing a force to engage.


BTW, and despite the mildly negative tone of my comment, I knew of guilds on live that were happy to play that way. So if it works for you go for it.

[Clark]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

[DrunkGrunt11b]

DKP + Loot council.

DKP- Why shouldn't people that always show up not be rewarded more over people who only log in for the mob that drops their shit?

Loot council- If two or more members tie on a item a loot council(of 5 or another odd number decides who gets loot) or if one person has more dkp then the other person but said person with less dkp but get far more gains of item the council can award it to them.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Clark [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

The loot council in BDA has always explained their rationale if asked, at least as far as I have seen. As mentioned in this thread, loot council decisions have a lot of factors that are considered, and those that feel slighted by a decision are not always fully aware of those factors.

That's the thing with loot councils, though... subjective decisions are tough and there's always going to be people that disagree with them. Guilds that opt for DKP relieve themselves of that subjectivity and source of potential discontent within the ranks, which I totally get because loot can make people do crazy things... but gearing based off of individual preferences and willingness to spend DKP doesn't always gear up the guild in the most efficient way possible (i.e. in Velious, tanks get hooked up first with all the good +HP, +resists shit instead of some bard that had a bunch of DKP to blow.)

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Clark [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Long as you don't join BDA you should be fine. Their loot council is by far the most corrupt.

The really pathetic thing about your shitpost is that you probably believe it to be true.

[erog84]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DKP systems have built-in favoritism in one form or another. If you have a rule that says you are ineligible for loot if you haven't raided in X days/weeks/months, you are playing favorites for current raiders. Hell, the whole idea of DKP is to play favorites for those who accrue the most DKP (whoever that happens to be). I've never seen a DKP system that didn't have a ton of small rules and addendums that were meant to prevent unfortunate loot distribution. Each of these is a form of favoritism.

I've always seen the most loot strife in DKP-based guilds. People would constantly bicker over DKP rules and regulations in order to adjust the rules to favor themselves. In contrast, the loot council guilds I've been in have been relatively fair. There will always been questioned loot calls, but as long as the officers can give some reasoning and you have trust in them, it's all good. And if you don't have trust in the leadership of your guild, why the hell are you there in the first place? And certainly the most fucked up loot calls I've seen have taken place in a DKP-based guild.

Issue # 1 - Blind Trust in your guild leadership. This is the internet, where sadly most people will take advantage if they can. Has happened in too many guilds on p99(and every other game known to man0 to just blindly trust your leadership to make the right call. DKP allows alot more accountability than a loot council where any officer can make up any reason they want.

Issue # 2 - You seem to think that everyone should have equal buying power regardless who raids more. To call it "favorites" for people who invest more time in the guild to get more gear speaks to some type of entitlement mindset.

[Kayd]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

BTW, and despite the mildly negative tone of my comment, I knew of guilds on live that were happy to play that way. So if it works for you go for it.

Thanks, I understand better why guilds do it. I was just pointing out it does have consequences. The nature of the game is that loot is random. Therefore, the only way to make sure those who put in the most time have a higher probability of getting something good is to make sure those that have the least time to put in have a lower probability of getting anything good. People go to whatever guild is going to give them the best chance of getting what they want thus you get guilds like the one you mention.

[August]

Zero sum DKP is the only nonbiased, fair way to award loot based on contribution and previous loot distribution.

DKP systems nowadays award inflationary dkp and implement bid systems to balance that massive oversight out.

If I'm in a raid and a piece of loot drops that is worth 100 DKP and there are 25 members at the table, we all get 4, someone spends 100 dkp, and it's done. If those same 25 people continually made every raid and the same scenario played out, all 25 would get 1 piece of loot (for the same amount of contribution) in 25 100 dkp loot drops.

Ran a DKP system for several years both in EQ and WoW with this exact mentality and it worked flawlessly. WoW guild was world top 10 for both years that i ran it - because our members were geared based on how much they showed up and contributed to getting loot (which is another indicator that they do well - we actually down the boss).

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by August [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Zero sum DKP is the only nonbiased, fair way to award loot based on contribution and previous loot distribution.

DKP systems nowadays award inflationary dkp and implement bid systems to balance that massive oversight out.

If I'm in a raid and a piece of loot drops that is worth 100 DKP and there are 25 members at the table, we all get 4, someone spends 100 dkp, and it's done. If those same 25 people continually made every raid and the same scenario played out, all 25 would get 1 piece of loot (for the same amount of contribution) in 25 100 dkp loot drops.

Ran a DKP system for several years both in EQ and WoW with this exact mentality and it worked flawlessly. WoW guild was world top 10 for both years that i ran it - because our members were geared based on how much they showed up and contributed to getting loot (which is another indicator that they do well - we actually down the boss).

That's an interesting compromise between loot council and dip and seems to function most closely to alpha ^^ since in essence everyone in 100% attendance is taking turns. The guilds's interests are not directly elevated/satisfied as with loot council and it seems to address Ceci's concerns about strategic spending, which certainly must cut down on the frustration of those who would otherwise be outwitted. It would also aid in retention rate for some because one would realize that they will get the items they want for certain if they are patient.

I like it.