Monks, Dual Trance Sticks even worth it at 35?

[Trajor]

See this. Ada/SoS then Epic/SoS

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=110823

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Kayso [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Another weekly monk DPS question and the typical several responses with patently incorrect information.

See this thread as an example where only Colgate is correct.

OP: Math says SoS x2 across the board until you get your epic. Keep IFS forever for mobs with DS. When you factor in T-Staff proc and better DPS, it can be argued that the extra DS damage you take is offset making it "better".

Not necessarily, according to the following chart (assuming it's right), it all depends on the proper multiplier to factor in for the offhand.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL...anM/edit?pli=1

At level 45:

SoS primary 1.43; offhand 1.21
IFS: primary 2.18

If you use the 78% value relavant to dual wield/double attack at level 60

1.43 + (1.21)(0.78) = 2.37

Under those circumstances yes double SoS's would beat the IFS. The challenge, however, is that you can't factor in the DA/DW dynamics for offhand using the 78% value at level 45; it's not appropriate. If the spreadsheet is right you can get that real number with (skill + level)/400 = 68%.

What it it's 68% for calculation purposes?

1.43 + (1.21)(0.68) = 2.25 for double SoS vs 2.18 for IFS

If the spreadsheet isn't accurate?

60% at 45?

1.43 + (1.21)(0.60) = 2.15 for double SoS vs 2.18 for IFS


It really all hinges on just how much those final ranks of double attack and dual wield impact the offhand.

What about level 30?

57% (that might be generously too high) at level 30 for offhand

1.25 + (1.21)(0.57) = 1.94 for double SoS vs 1.98 for IFS

If the calculator is correct, at level 45:

-double SoS has a 3% raw dps advantage compared to IFS (that's a small advantage)
-IFS is lighter than 2 SoS
-Less damage shield intake with IFS
-Fewer ripostes with IFS
-YOUR ripostes hit that much harder with IFS

So nah, 2 SoS across the board until epic isn't really a true statement. A strong case could be made for the IFS being flat out better from 30-43 with a tradeoff 43-48 of pros/cons. All of that is a moot point, however, as you didn't even cite the best DW setup (pre-epic). Ada club + SoS > 2x SoS from the low/mid 40s, and the proc on Ada club starting at 50 is the icing on the cake.

I'm afraid the issue isn't quite as simple other than the fact that they're all good weapons and PB vs IFS vs 2x SoS vs Ada/SoS are all really similar in terms of dps output. PB and IFS are cheaper than the comparable dual wield combos.

[Kayso]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm afraid the issue isn't quite as simple other than the fact that they're all good weapons and PB vs IFS vs 2x SoS vs Ada/SoS are all really similar in terms of dps output. PB and IFS are cheaper than the comparable dual wield combos.

I didn't quote the entire post, but good math.

I think your dual wield formula is right. But, at least on live, DW was not capped at (level +1) *5. It races to 252 with 200+ being achievable very early on. At least that's how I remember it from live, maybe I am wrong in terms of P99. In either event, that only affects SoSx2 vs. 2HB.

If I am right, that makes SoS x2 2.33 at level 45 -- not the 2.25 you have. That's a 7% increase over IFS at that level not considering player's riposte damage.

I don't consider player's riposte damage... I wish I could, but I've never been able to come up with a quantifiable way to do so. But yes, you're right that IFS shines in that instance. Does it make up for a 7% dps differential at 45? I don't think so, but maybe.

Assumptions:

1. Epic at 50 or shortly after. This is achievable by ANYONE.

2. SoS is still cheaper than AC. Has this changed in the last 4 months? AC + SoS is arguably 1% better at 50 than SoS x2 and that is without considering SoS's superior riposte damage. I'm going to call them equal prior to epic (level 50ish). And since AC costs more...

3. Didn't consider pre-35 based on OPs question. Pre-30 is where JM is a consideration as you look at damage caps and have to consider STR more closely on twinks/alts with good gear.

I don't think your conclusions are bad either... I don't think you're considering the cost on AC vs just how close it is to SoS in the main hand 35-50. And I will give you that PB is also a consideration, but I think the IFS's less DS damage taken, weight, and high riposte damage offsets the PB's 2% more Raw DPS at level 50.

At least you're doing the math and you're not telling OP to get a JM at level 35. And at least you're not doing bad math by adding damage bonus to raw weapon damage and dividing by delay to get "ratio".

But yes, I do think it is that easy: Get SoS x2 and an IFS and use the right weapon(s) at the right time. By 50ish, OP can get his epic and just keep a 2HB for situational use.

[Troxx]

For mainhand damage, AC actually pulls ahead of SoS mainhand by level 45, and continues to pull ahead further the higher up you go. Jade mace doesn't catch SoS until 60, and even then it's pretty much dead even.

There's a case to be made that perhaps using AC over SoS in offhand (after epic) is the ideal choice. Their ratios are so smokingly close that the 6 second stun proc (albeit not common offhand) on the AC would be worth a slightly lower average damage output compared to the SoS. I guess it depends entirely on what you're doing. Even if you're not the one tanking, the mob not hitting your groupmates for 6 seconds is still a worthwhile thing.

For what it's worth, my real-time experience with IFS vs AC/SoS at level 40 is that IFS consistently drops mobs faster.

[Kayso]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For mainhand damage, AC actually pulls ahead of SoS mainhand by level 45, and continues to pull ahead further the higher up you go. Jade mace doesn't catch SoS until 60, and even then it's pretty much dead even.

There's a case to be made that perhaps using AC over SoS in offhand (after epic) is the ideal choice. Their ratios are so smokingly close that the 6 second stun proc (albeit not common offhand) on the AC would be worth a slightly lower average damage output compared to the SoS. I guess it depends entirely on what you're doing. Even if you're not the one tanking, the mob not hitting your groupmates for 6 seconds is still a worthwhile thing.

Level - SoSx2 - AC + SoS
35 - 2.19 - 2.19 (even)
40 - 2.28 - 2.29 (+0.4%)
45 - 2.33 - 2.34 (+0.4%)
50 - 2.42 - 2.44(+0.8%)

I acknowledged this in my post. It does, technically, pull ahead -- but without player riposte damage. I'm guessing when you factor in player's riposte damage its a net loss.

They weigh about the same. Unless AC is now cheaper than SoS, or AC now procs pre-50, there really isn't a reason to consider AC over SoS for the main hand.

Everything else you're talking about is post level 50 at which point OP can have an epic and no longer has his original question.

[Troxx]

Your epic doesn't just fall in your lap at 50. Depending on your level of twinkage, number of friends, or power of guild - you might not see your epic until well into your 50s.

Epic is not a given at 50. Most monks you group with under 55 do not have theirs.

[Kayso]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your epic doesn't just fall in your lap at 50. Depending on your level of twinkage, number of friends, or power of guild - you might not see your epic until well into your 50s.

Epic is not a given at 50. Most monks you group with under 55 do not have theirs.

This is all a choice. The friends you make and the guild you're in is on you. Anyone who wants an epic at 50ish can get one.

Its also the topic for another thread and in no way mitigates that math and pricing/availability says SoS x2 > (slightly) AC + SoS.

I actually thought of an argument for AC + SoS. If you think AC is something you might want in your bags for situational use down the road, and you can spare the extra plat over an SoS, might as well buy it now.

[Kremit]

Damn! This was a good read, thanks.