Aftermath eating a full 10 days raid suspension

[Maner]

Originally Posted by VANVEM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A. Nobody is reaching:

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

This was from Sirken's latest update, even a 1st grader like yourself should be able to understand this. I can hear you arguing already that the "Kael rules don't state that, the Kael Rules were about FTE and 1 attempt, which may have taken some guilds longer than others, but it did not allow for stalling.

AND B. The only People laughing is Aftermath, because they got one over on the server. But did they? we'll see by the staff's response. but here is a quote to prove the Deliberate intent of this gesture.



funny I notice Detoxx edited that particular quate but failed to indicate that that assumption was no longer valid, wonder why?

Multiple people asked for clarification and for a consensus to be reached in regards to how much time after the FTE. No one was willing to come to an agreement so now you can kick rocks pretty much.

[nicemace]

Originally Posted by VANVEM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you fucking retarded? i posted the rules, the kael rules are posted here as well, no where does it change the the rule of stalling, it said you had one attempt.

But it did not say that the part of about not FTEing just to prevent another guild from engaging was rescinded, and whether your stupid fucking ass can understand it or not, that does not mean that it doesnt exist. Actually it's opposite, the existed and recorded rule would take precedant. thanks for playing

yeah and there is nothing defined about what goes on between that one attempt. the FTE in kael specifically gives you time to engage. its not like FTE's in other zones where its FTE and pull.

stall is in relation to preventing other guilds from engaging. when no other guild is entitled to engage, you're not stalling you can take your merry old time.

don't get me wrong. aftermath fucked the raid scene completely after they whinged about autofire and had all these shitty rules introduced. but they have not broken any rule with their actions in kael. sure they might be scumbags but they are still operating by the awfully defined rules that have been awfully imposed.

as I said. shitty defined rules = shitty ruleset.

[Maner]

[QUOTE=VANVEM;2234563]

Originally Posted by FatMice [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude! Read what I am typing and understand it, I have (for the sake of this discussion) conceded the fact that Detoxx, Pint, and the rest of aftermath are all sincere in what they are saying. and that they may VERY WELL have the best intentions here,but......

BUT YOU BROKE THE MOTHER FUCKING RULES! that fact hasn't changed, and in the most disrespectful way possible, if in fact you wanted to change things what they SHOULD have done is brought this very scenario up in the summit, they had the chance and if you go back and listen to it now, after the fact. it is blatantly obvious that they already had this planned. IF they had it would have been addressed, everyone of the GL's would have made damn sure they had. But by doing it this way, Pint is saying "see, I warned you"

Yep thats a great way to get people to trust in your motives, if Aftermath wants to Prove to the entire server that they mean what they are saying the Detoxx should approach the other GL's and offer a concession for stalling before a ruling comes down and ask that they all come back to the table to work out some real rules

In regards to the FTE races, it is basically a stall according to our rules as soon as one guild drops FTE and that same guild then clears to the mob. As the rule states you don't get an FTE message if you are not ready to engage the mob right then. The stalking rule is moot as the race up rule set superseded it.

[Maner]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We've got two infractions against Aftermath, though. 1) leaving the start too early (before KT popped) and 2) stalling (not allowed to leave the zone after you FTE). Even though they clearly broke two different rules on the same engage, I would settle to punish them as one infraction together. Agree to sit out next two KTs or eat 10 day ban and have loot deleted.

Where in the stalling rules does it state you are not allowed to leave the zone? Once you zoned out it would drop FTE. The race up rules overwrote the stalking rules in this case.

[Maner]

Originally Posted by VANVEM [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll take your word on the FTE, but you or anyone of the people here from aftermath please show me where in the "new" kael rules it changes:

Q12: What exactly does the Staff consider a stall?
A: As far as engage stalls, the Staff will grant you one DA, or about that much time on an engage before considering it a stall. So it’s important that guilds do not engage a mob until they are ready to kill it. The spirit of the rule (and what we are looking to do here) is to prevent guilds from locking up a target before they are ready to kill it, just to prevent other guilds that are ready to kill it first/faster. If you stall, you need to drop aggro immediately and concede/forfeit the mob. Any number of players can be considered to be stalling a mob, what we look for is the engage of the kill force. I know some of you want an exact number of seconds, or players, or DPS done, but the fact is that’s just not realistic with guilds being so vastly different in numbers and strength while also competing for the same content. The most important thing here is the statement about the spirit of this rule stated above.

Please do not respond with They didn't answer or they said unlimited time, neither of those addresses the fact that FTE was gained with no intent to engage. Which according to Sirken's raid rule is The spirit of the rule

so with that said, what they did was NOT entirely legal. Again I don't think it warrants a 10 day suspenson, but allowing someone to "teach the server a lesson" by Blatantly breaking the Spirit of the Rule. has to be the Absofuckinglutley worst thing we could do to try and make the server a better place.

According to the race up rule, you don't even need your force in the zone when the FTE goes off. How does this stall rule still have any bearing?

[JurisDictum]

I'm a member of aftermath but have been a little ghosty lately, so I'm a bit removed from the current drama. Some advice ill give guilds trying to break into the NToV/Kael scene:

1) Sirken has been accused of bias by players in every top guild on the server. IB, TMO, Rampage, Aftermath whatever. The only bias this guy has is a tendency to keep the status quo and listen to the party with the most hard evidence. This tends to favor the currently most powerful guild(s).

2) Its not as easy to create rigged rules as you think. EQ is a surprising complicated game, evidenced by how guilds continue to innovate in this 17 year old game filled with fanatics that really should know everything by now. I remember we thought we were being cleaver by allowing instant FTEs by trackers vs Rampage...it didn't work out very well.

3) This server's raid scene will never be casual friendly. The staff has historically been very clear that there needs to be a place in the server for no-lifers that want to play 12 hours everyday...its classic.

[Stormfists]

How have you nerds thudded out 28 pages to SirkenQuest...

Go outside.

[Gimp]

Originally Posted by Endonde [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The real travesty of this whole situation is that somehow Gimpster was able to get an FTE, the player skill level must have really fallen off since I've been gone.

I loves u

[bspa0700]

I'm only 18 pages in...

But has it been mentioned yet that both Awakened AND Aftermath ran up in Kael immediately on rumble to secure FTE on both? There seems to be alot of hate for Detoxx and Aftermath right now, but all that happened is we won a run up, that only 2 guilds were contesting...

[Ravager]

Detoxx knows he got away with breaking the rules, otherwise he wouldn't be melting down over an imaginary petition in raid discussion.