The legality of vigilantism is fundamentally flawed

[sOurDieSel]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We're not celebrating chopping heads off, we're celebrating the start of the republic.

4th of july is about the indpendance of the usa, not killing british. Nowutimean ?

Speak for yourself Frenchie. You're not even American. Them filthy Red Coats deserve a lot worse than what they got. You also make a compelling argument for banning Muslim immigration because you know... chopping off heads and all.

[Daywolf]

Well I'd trade our leftists for their Brexiter's any day of the week. Then everyone would be happy. GB is good in my book, at least half of them. france is doomed, they did it to themselves. They have been doing it to themselves for a very long time. Sad...

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at the inner-cities that are burning. Family structure has been destroyed. I know it's not the entirety of the problem, but it's the starting point. Fatherless children growing up, no real guidance, no mentoring. In the case of blacks, it's even worse since if the fatherless children do find a mentor; it's government sponsored, black liberation theology churches or inner-city gangs (or all of the above).

And I believe they are actually targeted to be that way, by local, state and federal government. Like one of my fav Reagan quotes "government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem" (but not that there should be no govt). They use psychology to manipulate the various groups, it's literally in everything now, even f2p mmo's.

When babies are born, they are born completely sociopathic. It takes us a while to realize that the universe in fact doesn't revolve around us. And it's not just automatic, it takes a good deal of basic wisdom and usually within the first 12 years of development. Wisdom often comes by fire and trial, unless you are fortunate to have someone teach you as best they can. Nothing too complicated that a low IQ cant learn, while high IQ no great advantage.

But not saying that the totality of humanity is pure evil, there is some evil that just must be learned before doing, even of the unthinkable as it were. Just that we are all void, but not soulless. We even have emotional responses by nature, but those responses can eventually be nullified if such acts are committed over and over. Even to the point of a negative response becoming a good response and a desire for it.

I think of humans as like a base code, all the needed code to operate, layers of code (not getting too technical here). just like a program works, but very advanced as in sentient AI (no emphasis on the Artificial, but just to provide the familiar). Everyone is imprinted the same in the beginning much like a template including all the code to basically function. Including firmware to interact with the body, it's a complete system. The brain is basically a CPU and data storage unit, very mechanical. But what we are, at our core, we're data, and everything else in our system (body etc) is there as an environment to develop our data, and much of it programmed from the external throughout our lives.

Now, introduce a virus. Introduce various anti-virus programs. And finally when the system fails (the cpu, the power supply etc), the totality of the data can be transferred. After all, everything in our environment is very possibly digital. A sort of computer running a simulation of sorts.

Now, for um crime and punishment, there just comes a point that they are so corrupt, there is no coming back. I don't think we are born as total psychopaths, but that is simply the cascade effect of an introduced virus to the system. If dealt with early, it can be anti-virused out before damage to the system is done, but at some point it does damage the base code and overwrites ethical reasoning subroutines. Not that a sociopath is ethical, but whatever could have been developed over that becomes fundamentally broken, like a hard drive making "click of death" noises and begins behaving erratic. Either the system is allowed to corrupt and destroy other systems, or it is shut down.


tl;dr we're living in a digital simulation, full of consequences to our own actions.

You never answered my question ^^ If you believe all babies are born with identical disposition and that behavior/personality is 100% environment driven, then you believe that all children with terrible upbringing will necessarily develop terrible tendencies, which we both know to be inaccurate ^^

Unfortunately there is no way to test your premise that all people begin equally destructive directly, but we can indirectly by studying the outcomes of people in different environments and what we see is that while most may appear to conform to your assertion, all do not. I do not dispute he emportance of environment, but the fact that we see different outcomes given he same environment very clearly demands other influences ^^

Also, placing such a great emphasis on the importance of environment does no more for the argument of individual responsibility. You can blame the environment just as easily as you can blame genetics and if you consider all people equally deplorable to begin with individual responsibility becomes entirely unreasonable because you are demanding people. Shave contrary to their nature ^^

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Ahldagor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So it's invalid subjectivity. You do realize you're harping on one specific definition of shame with that while the others deal primarily in morality, right?

No, I did't know that, but I'll take you at your word ^^ I am not religious and am still ashamed when I do things wrong, most especially if it reflects poorly on those around me.

Still doesn't counter my original analogy.

About executing children for taking a pack of gum? If that is what you are talking about, again, why would you do that? That plays into the next step of deciding what should be criminalized. If the penalty for crime is death, it behooves one to responsibly define crime and there are unlimited ways to do that ^^

Should you feel the need to respond then you should trace the logic of your stance as you should through an ethic that should be ascribed to being outside of should which should surmise in should being the key indicator of invalid subjectivity.

From society's perspective, what one should do is that which benefits society ^^

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I did't know that, but I'll take you at your word ^^ I am not religious and am still ashamed when I do things wrong, most especially if it reflects poorly on those around me.



About executing children for taking a pack of gum? If that is what you are talking about, again, why would you do that? That plays into the next step of deciding what should be criminalized. If the penalty for crime is death, it behooves one to responsibly define crime and there are unlimited ways to do that ^^



From society's perspective, what one should do is that which benefits society ^^

The children thing was a slippery slope statement made in rebuttal to the generalisation of all criminals should be executed. The analogy was "that's like saying criminals won't get guns." Gotta keep up yo.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You don't know the difference between an army and the families consisting of men, women and children? Did the Continental Army even make it a common practice of capturing soldiers in the revolutionary war and beheading them all in public squares? At the conclusion of the war, did we round them all up and chop off heads? That's savagery. There were issues on both sides, but in the end, we didn't decimate them. And they were soldiers even.

The dunks. (((Jarnauga))) has a lot to be sorry for. I have a much better understanding of him now and why he is an apologist for absolutely everything under the sun.

[Angushjalmur]

Originally Posted by Jarnauga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If for you Justice is "who gives a shit if there's innocent people convicted", i'm baffled, and im not gonna keep talking to an obvious moron, yep.

if a handful out of 7+ billion are wrongfully executed, it's not a travesty or anything. I'd be willing to bet BLM has killed more people than the number of innocents we've executed

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by AzzarTheGod [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The dunks. (((Jarnauga))) has a lot to be sorry for. I have a much better understanding of him now and why he is an apologist for absolutely everything under the sun.

Well I only dunk because of his short-sighted world view, I don't hold him responsible for what happened during the french revolution personally. Just like I don't hold my fellow countrymen alive today accountable for slavery and reparations. But what (((Jarnauga))) does in the future, I don't know, because he refuses to learn from history thus will likely be there when it's repeated.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you believe that all people with shitty upbringing will always be shitty adults and become criminals?

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You never answered my question ^^ If you believe all babies are born with identical disposition and that behavior/personality is 100% environment driven, then you believe that all children with terrible upbringing will necessarily develop terrible tendencies, which we both know to be inaccurate ^^

Unfortunately there is no way to test your premise that all people begin equally destructive directly, but we can indirectly by studying the outcomes of people in different environments and what we see is that while most may appear to conform to your assertion, all do not. I do not dispute he emportance of environment, but the fact that we see different outcomes given he same environment very clearly demands other influences ^^

Also, placing such a great emphasis on the importance of environment does no more for the argument of individual responsibility. You can blame the environment just as easily as you can blame genetics and if you consider all people equally deplorable to begin with individual responsibility becomes entirely unreasonable because you are demanding people. Shave contrary to their nature ^^

I did answer it, it just depends what your view of a sociopath is I guess. I mean being good, bad or neutral (apart from yin and yang). It's a bad and broken state to be born into, and all babies are born that way. From then on it's environment, upbringing. And I'm excluding disorders, but talking about the average and what we call healthy or normal baby.

But there can be traits, but in general it's all the same, I mean the margin of difference isn't that great. We are all one race, and we all share basically the same miserable problems from birth. Upbringing if done properly just gives us the knowledge and wisdom to choose for ourselves better, bringing us out of that original state of being a total sociopath.

But no, just because a person is born into a bad environment doesn't mean they will become bad. The likelihood is much higher though to become a psychopath or something, especially having been born bad as everyone is, and not rising above being a sociopath due to that environment and especially upbringing.

So it's not just shitty upbringing = shitty adults, we are basically born criminal, or a great great tendency to become criminal. We basically spend the beginning of our lives under the watchful eyes of the prison warden: our parents [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Daywolf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well I only dunk because of his short-sighted world view, I don't hold him responsible for what happened during the french revolution personally. Just like I don't hold my fellow countrymen alive today accountable for slavery and reparations. But what (((Jarnauga))) does in the future, I don't know, because he refuses to learn from history thus will likely be there when it's repeated.

Supplemental dunks on (((Jarnauga))) in this post.