new patch ench charm

[kanras]

Few other things:

• Could we keep the evidence in this thread, please? Makes it much easier for all parties, I would think.
• There is no "devs", "you guys", with regards to this issue. Other devs knew generally what I was doing, but the change was entirely mine. If you have animosity you want to release, you can send me a PM.
• Try to keep this thread constructive.
• If there's a specific situation that you think is getting unwarranted charm breaks, be sure to post details. For example, "I charmed a light blue mob and it was averaging 2 minute durations over 20 attempts." or "As a level 55 enchanter, a fully tash/malo'd level 45 mob is averaging 30 second durations over 15 attempts". Be sure to pastebin your logs.
• I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.

[Koota]

At the end of the day, Enchanters now no longer have a need to raise their CHA. That certainly wasn't classic, was it? CHA should be the underlying foundation to their character, and now it does absolutely nothing. Oh, I can get a stack of Water Flasks for 1 silver cheaper. But Calm resist aggro checks aren't affected by it, and now charm is quite literally -useless-.

I agree that Whirl Till You Hurl and even Charm required a nerf, but I really feel like it was taken from one end of the spectrum (OP) and seriously thrown to the bottom of the opposite side of it. They aren't even worth memorizing, much less casting. -Ever-. There really needs to be some middle ground.

I am beyond disenchanted with enchanters right now (no pun intended). The aspect of having to wrangle a hasted pet that could break at any time, CCing, and stun locking kept me doing something in a group at all times. And kept me ENTERTAINED. Now I am nothing short of a half ass'd shaman. With solo pulls I do nothing. Haste and clarity. Nukes generate too much aggro from a warrior who can't taunt off me. Stuns do the same. I literally can not do anything to contribute in a group, other than haste and clarity. Not even trying to QQ, but I feel input on me considering trading my account for another, just because im not enjoying it anymore is warranted to consider 'hey, maybe we did over do it a tad'. My two cents

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure how you derived 1) and 2) from those quotes. I'm guessing it was this:



When I read that, I interpret it as:
"When charm soloing as an enchanter between levels 40 and 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke."

Which would be much more reasonable regarding his 2.5 - 3 minute standard charm duration if he's soloing low-mid dark blues.

Remember 1 thing : First charming at low lv is more dangerous and thus charm breaking will occure more often due to the fact the a blue mob will be within the range of 1 to 6 level below you.

At higher lv charm is holding more steady due to the fact that a blue mob range from 1- 12 lv below you. a good exemple of that is sebilis.A lv 55 enchanter charming a dar knight wich is lv 44-49 make the duration of the spell more realible. That is why it is often goes up to the full duration.
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=5013

When i tested charm in beta i was soloing in sebilis with a lv 50 enchanter and i couldnt solo at all because charm was breaking too often. Yes i could kill a few mob but the risk was too great to make solo viable.

It eventually became more realible around lv 52 and higher.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Few other things:

[*]I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.[/list]

Thx you [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Few other things:

• Could we keep the evidence in this thread, please? Makes it much easier for all parties, I would think.
• There is no "devs", "you guys", with regards to this issue. Other devs knew generally what I was doing, but the change was entirely mine. If you have animosity you want to release, you can send me a PM.
• Try to keep this thread constructive.
• If there's a specific situation that you think is getting unwarranted charm breaks, be sure to post details. For example, "I charmed a light blue mob and it was averaging 2 minute durations over 20 attempts." or "As a level 55 enchanter, a fully tash/malo'd level 45 mob is averaging 30 second durations over 15 attempts". Be sure to pastebin your logs.
• I have read the evidence posted in this thread a couple of times. So just because I don't respond, don't think that it's falling on deaf ears.

Thanks for the response Kanras. I was pretty irritated when it was changed, but this is just a game. No need to go crazy and ragequit, and besides I can't complain too much about a free server. Besides, my toon is plenty effective as is, although it took me a bit to get used to it. I can still go /lfg and get asked to sebilis within 15 minutes (suck it Nalkin!).

If I had to guess, I would say average charm durations on a 50 pet at L55 are about 0.5-1 minute, when they should be 4-5 to be classic, and on a 45 pet maybe 2 minutes when they should be 7-8. But that's just waving my hands and I could be totally wrong, what we need is for someone to make a log of 10-20 charms on a known level mob for a some reasonable data. It's late for me but I'll do it tomorrow night if no one else steps up to the plate (here's looking at you Poule!).

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have not looked at the changes. But that is how it was intended before. If the mob was tashed, malo'd, charm would often last the duration. The big issues, were the consequences when charm would break.

Charm should cause wipes on raids if used. Charm should be useable to solo. Charm should be dangerous in groups, but useable if you keep the mob snared, tashed, and malo'd.

I don't know how to fix the issue, with charm being a primary dps method on raids.

Maybe charmed mobs should run off randomly in wrong directions and bring back trains, if their master is not close enough?

There are so many things that could be explored.

I think the simplest fix is to just change the max duration. I saw a quote from Castersrealm somewhere that the max duration of allure was 8 minutes, not 20.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by kanras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure how you derived 1) and 2) from those quotes. I'm guessing it was this:



When I read that, I interpret it as:
"When charm soloing as an enchanter between levels 40 and 50, mobs you charmed could kill two other mobs before charm broke."

Which would be much more reasonable regarding his 2.5 - 3 minute standard charm duration if he's soloing low-mid dark blues.

Well I guessed a bit higher in level because a) from 45-50 is when mob HPs start to take off. A L45 mob only has 4k HP, a L50 mob has 10k, while the damage they do does not increase proportionally. So its right around then that charmed pets would have a hard time finishing fights. Second, even a hasted L45 mob is just not that damaging to an L55 enchanter, especially when its not dual wielding.

But we can argue the details. I just wanted to get the ball rolling with actual evidence rather than whining from enchanters and hating from the haters. It's a simple method of calculating charm durations rather than 'oh I remember this'. I like mathematics a lot more than vague memories.

[Uaellaen]

At the end of the day, Enchanters now no longer have a need to raise their CHA. That certainly wasn't classic, was it? CHA should be the underlying foundation to their character, and now it does absolutely nothing. Oh, I can get a stack of Water Flasks for 1 silver cheaper. But Calm resist aggro checks aren't affected by it, and now charm is quite literally -useless-.

I agree that Whirl Till You Hurl and even Charm required a nerf, but I really feel like it was taken from one end of the spectrum (OP) and seriously thrown to the bottom of the opposite side of it. They aren't even worth memorizing, much less casting. -Ever-. There really needs to be some middle ground.

well as far as i remember classic, enchanters didnt go for 200+ cha gear because charm sucked in classic, and whirl till you hurl was more used as a "mez" type since it breaks on damage ...

with velious or luclin our enchanters started to charm for real ... before that it was always a gamble ...

[Koota]

Originally Posted by Uaellaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well as far as i remember classic, enchanters didnt go for 200+ cha gear because charm sucked in classic, and whirl till you hurl was more used as a "mez" type since it breaks on damage ...

with velious or luclin our enchanters started to charm for real ... before that it was always a gamble ...

Enchanters I knew on classic went for 200+ CHA gear. And they were also charming imps to do the Efreeti, as well. True, it wasn't reliable all the time, but it was at least usable beyond a minute long duration. And again, I know this is a free server, and because of that reason my irritation with these changes aren't valid or whatever. But, it is what it is.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Koota [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters I knew on classic went for 200+ CHA gear. And they were also charming imps to do the Efreeti, as well. True, it wasn't reliable [I]all the time[/I], but it was at least usable beyond a minute long duration. And again, I know this is a free server, and because of that reason my irritation with these changes aren't valid or whatever. But, it is what it is.

The reason being that a lv 50 enchanter charming a imp lv 46-48 make the grip on your pet very weak, just like before the nerf.
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.html?id=3275

i really beleive it was working as intended pre nerf . try to charm a krup knight at 53 with boltran agacerie and have a nice grip on your pet with spell file no 7,it was only holding betwin 1-3min max. wasnt even worth the effort solo. could help with exp with heal and a group.