Instead of arguing over Ogre FSI, which class is Ogre best at?

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No argument, Trolls are way better statistically. But do they kill 20% faster, enough to offset the XP penalty? If you sit down and do the math I think you will quickly see it's very clear they do not.

If you are soloing, yes, they easily offset their penalty.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by aaezil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being stunned for 1 second has never made me lose aggro - sounds like you’re blowing it out of proportion

something something...
Wood Elf is the best warrior race because it has the highest AGI [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[dekova]

Originally Posted by DRAGONBAIT [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so, how come everyone is puttin FSI ahead troll regen for a shaman? plz develop, is there something high-end i am missing?

i mean, i am a troll shaman and i cant recall dieing cos of being stuned, maybe theres a borderline moment but if u do things properly it shouldnt happen so HP regen as a shaman isnt much more valuable?

DragonBait did a great job of derailing this thread.

I'll say that Ogre is best as a shadowknight. Fits the race thematically and makes the best use of the FSI as a tanking caster.

[Danth]

Potentially relevant, from today's patch:

Haynar: Bash can now interrupt spells, even if the stun component does not land (Credit work by Torven/Mackal).

I'm not sure how it applies to Ogres, but I hope this works both ways and I can bash those annoying giant complete healers.

Danth

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are soloing, yes, they easily offset their penalty.

Troll regen provides +1800 HP per hour from levels 20-49. That's if you're sitting the whole time. Realistically in practice it would be more like +1200 per hour at best since you spend a lot of time fighting and running around while solo.

Do you really think an extra +1200hp per hour makes you kill 20% faster? How many more mobs can you kill with an extra 20 hit points per minute? Especially considering that every other race can also bind wound to 50% health after each kill at the same speed you can? If you think about it, it becomes obvious that stacking +HP gear is way more advantageous for a soloing Warrior than the piddly Troll regen advantage, since that lets you bind wound much higher and zerk more safely.

[Palemoon]

About troll regen: its power and impact are felt more at the very low levels. When weak mobs are beating you down, that regen keeps you in the fight when other races are knocked down and killed.

Any baby troll knows how hard they are to kill, and the epic long fights vs. noob mobs that would leave the ogres, etc dead back at bind point.

The lower your hps, and the weaker mobs hit, the more power that regen is.

[Cen]

Originally Posted by dekova [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DragonBait did a great job of derailing this thread.

I'll say that Ogre is best as a shadowknight. Fits the race thematically and makes the best use of the FSI as a tanking caster.

I always found Ogre SK's thematically unsuited.. and DE's and more prissy highborn evil knights to fit the bill. Why do you think Ogres fit theme? Also its weird RZ can be SK with Ogre since RZ is the evil god of war who despises undead.

[sacman08]

Leaving out FSI, Ogres are best at being warriors, they have the best starting stats for the class, and can do surprisingly well in pre-planar gear. Starting a SK or Shaman isn't bad either but they are the second worst on WIS and INT starting out, and those are two of the hardest stats to aquire gear to raise.
As for FSI, I really think too much emphasis is put on the ability. I played a DE SK and Barb Warrior on live and never once thought, dang, I wish I had an ogre for FSI!

[DMN]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troll regen provides +1800 HP per hour from levels 20-49. That's if you're sitting the whole time. Realistically in practice it would be more like +1200 per hour at best since you spend a lot of time fighting and running around while solo.

Look at a warrior once. simple, straight forward, maybe a little masochistic. it's going to have it's downtime between kills reduced by half. Ask any warrior who solo'd any significant period throughout vanilla just how much time you will spend on your ass? Waaay more than 50%.

And again the 20% isn't just regen. A more appropriate question in this thread would be: do trolls kill 5% faster than ogres? I think they unquestionably do for the majority of "vanilla 50". Then it's going to depend on class. And there is the reality we all know, they will eventually hit 50 and that exp penalty is virtually irrelevant. there is a whole freaking year before the level cap is going to be lifted.

[Noselacri]

It takes a pretty long time before the realistically available gear can raise your stats to the point where ogres don't have a huge advantage over other tank races. Especially when you consider that even once those stats are technically cappable for, say, a human, an ogre could just gear into a different stat and maintain that aggregate bonus. It's really not until Velious endgame that you just have so many stats on your gear that the racial naturals no longer matter. It's possible for other races to max a stat before then, but that requires gearing specifically for this at the cost of other stats.

Ogres have like fully 50% higher melee stats throughout most of Everquest. For vanilla in particular, the kind of gear you'd have to wear to cap your stamina on a non-large race is pretty awful, you certainly won't do it in planar or whatever you might otherwise wish to be wearing. Dwarf is the only decent non-large race for melee, and they're still -40 strength, -32 strength, +20 dexterity compared to ogres. Agility is not a very useful stat so the agile races don't make up for it in any real way, nor is their agility advantage anywhere near as big as the strength and stamina advantage of ogres.

So an ogre warrior can start with 140 strength, 132 stamina, 95 dexterity. That's a seriously excellent baseline. A dwarf could start with 100/100/115 which sounds a lot less exciting, and you'd need about +100 str and stam from gear in order to cap out with buffs. That's not happening in vanilla. Probably not happening in Kunark, either. The ogre might end up with capped str/stam and higher dex than the dwarf thanks to the freedom to gear for dex. Even when you disregard FSI, the race is just objectively superior until Velious raiding. While capping strength isn't intensely important for tanks, it's still nice.

Shadowknight is the quintessential ogre class. They benefit fully from the stats and from the FSI. Warriors don't get that much out of FSI, it's not like it reduces your "DPS uptime" by a significant amount. For shamans it's heavily contingent on whether or not you intend to be a trophy soloer; if your MO is root-rotting, FSI does very little for you. In groups, while it can help when you take aggro, it's not a constant advantage either. You'll probably spend 90% of your time doing things where FSI is irrelevant, so while I'd personally still go ogre shaman, it's not such a big deal. The strength and stamina aren't nearly as interesting for a shaman, in part because any race you pick (except iksar) will have it.