Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, nowhere have I claimed that root rotting with a group vs. solo 'will change", and if you wish to claim I have you simply need to provide evidence that I made that claim. You will not find such evidence, because this is simply an example of a DSM Straw Man argument.

I'm simply asking for you to prove what you have tens? hundreds? of times objectively claimed - that a Shaman can improve a group's DPS and thereby provide a benefit comparable to or better than a non Epic Mage by Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to their group - which, for almost a year now, you have provided no proof of. The burden of proof to justify/prove your objective claim has been solely on you - for almost a year, and I have told you this plenty of times by now. Again, this is very simple and I am not sure why you have such a hard time understanding.

You did make the claim.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I could also link irrelevant videos that do not contain a Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to their group just like you did, and just like when you did it, it would simply not be evidence of a Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to their group.

You are saying this video of shaman root rotting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY is irrelevant because it can't be used to describe a group scenario. This means are claiming that root rotting looks different in a group vs. soloing. I won't be responding again to you on this silly semantic game you are playing where you keep saying you aren't making claims, while you are clearly making claims.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please quote me where I said any of this. The entire purpose of comparing a Mage's DPS to a Shaman's DPS is to get an idea of what the gap is. This makes it easier to determine the what the DPS loss is vs. the utility gained.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

Remember, I never said underpowered = bad. It just means Mages don't bring a lot to the table (which they sadly don't outside of CoTH). I wouldn't bring a Mage if that's all they can do. Shamans can output your DPS if necessary, have a decently tanky pet with Torpor, and they have a lot more utility to boot. This is talking about level 60 grouping.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even with 2 mobs root rotted while the Enchanters are killing with Charm pets a Shaman will hit the Mage's minimum DPS.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DPS is the key argument for bringing a Mage, and they can't even hit higher numbers than a Shaman. Their lack of utility means they are just sub-par compared to a Shaman in Seb. That isn't to say you can't play with a Mage. If you want to that's great! Most people aren't Min/Maxing their groups to begin with, regardless of what other people try to claim hehe. Remember this is level 60 we are talking about.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But at least for the Seb example, the numbers aren't adding up to make Mages special at all. At best they can DPS at the same level as a Shaman. [...] Having Torpor/Epic means a Shaman can sustain the DPS longer, without needing a break.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for the quotes bcbrown!

In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

This is an example of root rotting DPS.

Even with 2 mobs root rotted while the Enchanters are killing with Charm pets a Shaman will hit the Mage's minimum DPS.

This was when Troxx was showing his average DPS as 70 DPS. His numbers were off, which means the discussion changed once better evidence was provided.

DPS is the key argument for bringing a Mage, and they can't even hit higher numbers than a Shaman. Their lack of utility means they are just sub-par compared to a Shaman in Seb.

This is root rotting again.

But at least for the Seb example, the numbers aren't adding up to make Mages special at all.

This is root rotting again.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You did make the claim.



You are saying this video of shaman root rotting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY is irrelevant because it can't be used to describe a group scenario. This means are claiming that root rotting looks different in a group vs. soloing. I won't be responding again to you on this silly semantic game you are playing where you keep saying you aren't making claims, while you are clearly making claims.

No, you are attempting to equate what I DID say with that particular claim so that you can argue against it - which is simply YET ANOTHER example of a Straw Man argument. What I AM ACTUALLY saying - objectively and irrefutably - is that the video linked is simply NOT EVIDENCE of a Shaman Root Rotting multiple mobs parallel to the group and thereby improving the group's DPS providing a benefit comparable to or better than a non Epic Mage. Period. It's really that simple.

This is the simple objective fact that you seem to have difficulty understanding, and your above post does not change that simple fact. The burden of proof to provide evidence/proof supporting your objective claim is simply - still - squarely and firmly on your shoulders, for nearly a year now.

You do not get to try to put words in my mouth / say I said something I didn't say, and then accuse me of "silly semantic games" when I call you out for it. Nice try.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is an example of root rotting DPS.

Why are you calling out root rotting? Are you saying root rotting doesn't matter?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you calling out root rotting? Are you saying root rotting doesn't matter?

No, I am saying all the quotes you provided were quotes of me talking about DPS in a root rotting scenario. That isn't me saying a Shaman is out DPSing a Mage on a single target situation.

When people claim that I am saying Shamans out DPS Mages, they never put it in the context of root rotting. This leads to the false assumption that I am saying Shamans out DPS Mages in a single target scenario.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I am saying all the quotes you provided were quotes of me talking about DPS in a root rotting scenario. That isn't me saying a Shaman is out DPSing a Mage on a single target situation.

5c. Fact: DSM claimed that a shaman could put out dps similar to a 60 focused water pet mage in a group.

You disputed this quote, but it's not about a single target situation, this is just about grouping. Do you still dispute this?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You disputed this quote, but it's not about a single target situation, this is just about grouping. Do you still dispute this?

When he says "grouping", he leaves it vague. He claims that you can never root rot in a group, so I doubt he is including that into his equation. If he wants to admit a Shaman can root rot in a group, that will change my assumption on what he means.

If a group is doing trivial mobs for XP and the Shaman is allowed to root/rot the whole time, the Shaman can give a Mage a run for their money DPS wise. In these kinds of scenarios you don't need a Cleric to be healing the Charmed pets. You are basically soloing in a group at that point.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When he says "grouping", he leaves it vague. He claims that you can never root rot in a group, so I doubt he is including that into his equation.

If a group is doing trivial mobs for XP and the Shaman is allowed to root/rot the whole time, the Shaman can give a Mage a run for their money DPS wise. In these kinds of scenarios you don't need a Cleric to be healing the Charmed pets. You are basically soloing in a group at that point.

Are you affirming this position then?

a shaman could put out dps similar to a 60 focused water pet mage in a group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you affirming this position then?

In the specific case of a Shaman being allowed to Root/Rot while doing little else, yes.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea that I said Shamans will typically out-DPS Mages is a strawman, and thus not one of the points mentioned here. Mages will generally out-DPS a Shaman in single target scenarios and burst scenarios. Shamans can out-DPS Mages in root/rotting scenarios.

That is why I said this earlier. The problem is when people accuse me of saying "Shamans out-DPS Mages", they leave it vague, and it becomes a strawman argument. To someone who is just joining the thread, that puts the assumption in their mind I am talking about a single target scenario, or a burst DPS scenario.