sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you. Next time please just post the mob, and the logs. There is no reason to hide it.

Due to how low your DPS parse was for the 1H weapon you were using, I am pretty sure your parser is bad at this point.

Frostwrath does output good DPS, nowhere near 29 DPS, even on blue mobs.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For strictly theoretical purposes let’s assume that …

-DSM’s level 5 turtle parses are universally true.
-20 str results in 4.3% more dps
-4.3% dps means mobs die when soloing 4.3% faster

Would you, as a:
-new sk with EC gear
-playing a race with very low starting strength
-playing a race universally hated across Norrath
-resulting in rarely having a friendly vendor or banker around you

Would you rather have 4.3% more dps and 20 pounds worth of loot/coin hauling capacity or 20 more intelligence which results in pitifully nothing more mana at 9 scaling up eventually to 200 more mana at 60?

Knowing that:
-without raid gear you might be lucky to have 140- 160 unbuffed str at 60
-stamina will remain low-ish
-as such as a sk you won’t ever cap str without maniacal str (must be cast first) and focus (must be cast second) stack
-and that 200 more maximum mana pool means little to nothing while your ability recover mana (med, clarity, FT, PoTg) will have a huge impact on how many mana-actions you can take over time.

Discuss.

bingo bongo /thread

i cant believe you beautiful autists argued this all afternoon / evening / night

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

bingo bongo /thread

1-2 more DPS isn't going to significantly improve your leveling process. Not /thread at all.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have found bloodmaw and Mr turtle exceptionally good for comparing one weapon setup vs another setup - but that’s about it. Even then because of their low level it still doesn’t give you a perfect reflection of what you would expect on high end raid targets with high ac. In those fights damage bonus becomes a lot more important.

For example prior to the 2hand DB update TStaff and dual wield were very similar on bloodmaw but epic fist + a good offhand won on high ac raid targets due to lightening application of that static DB. After the 2h DB patch, TStaff wins all the time as dmg bonus on 30 delay 2hander is superior to DB on even super fast epic fists.

Again in my experience I didn’t learn much. I isolated variables, snared Bloodmaw near velks and combined 30 mins worth of parses for each weapon set. With my ranger two epics were within about 15% of the Meljeldin. The data was so garage I didn’t feel worthwhile to post and draw comparisons here.

In the end I feel the best way to see this stuff in action is to compare your sets (and peers) against non-trivial targets. Weapons like the Frostwrath on greens and blues lead people to believe they rival 2h. They simply do not.

As for how this impacts the sk starting point discussion, no clue lol. We are a bit past that though. Pushing new players to pump intel though usually isn’t the best path. It’s not as stupid as charisma for a paladin but the original devs saw a SK as 80/20 warrior to necro. Combat stats should be the priority.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In the end I feel the best way to see this stuff in action is to compare your sets (and peers) against non-trivial targets. Weapons like the Frostwrath on greens and blues lead people to believe they rival 2h. They simply do not.

Even against blues Frostwrath does pretty similar DPS to my 2h sword. Their ratios are almost identical, with Frostwrath being a little worse. 1h weapons are not as bad as people think. Last time I parsed some HS mobs with Frostwrath vs. my 2h weapon the DPS numbers were also only a few points off.

We are not discussing raid DPS in this thread.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Due to how low your DPS parse was for the 1H weapon you were using, I am pretty sure your parser is bad at this point.

Frostwrath does output good DPS, nowhere near 29 DPS, even on blue mobs.

I’m inclined to believe it’s pretty accurate. Fully buffed and hasted with 255 strength the Darkmetal Falchion was never an impressive weapon. It fluctuates under FULL buff conditions between 50-60dps with some random fights potentially lower and other really lucky fights maybe closer to 70. So 29dps with 95 strength under the cap, only worn haste at 34% and not using Yaulp - I believe the range of DPS Gamparse was clocking was very accurate.

My NTOV spear is closer to double. It’s nice putting out 80-85 dps on the low end and 115-120 dps on the lucky upper end in groups.

I didn’t have nearly enough fights/data - that was the biggest problem.

If parsed on Mr Turtle and I expect to have much higher numbers.

Because he’s level 5 - not level 43.

Frostwrath is a fine weapon. It shouldn’t be giving you numbers so close to your ToV 2 hander. I suspect it is doing so because … your target was level 5.

Edit: frostwrath will do a lot better than 27/29. Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m inclined to believe it’s pretty accurate. Fully buffed and hasted with 255 strength it was never an impressive weapon. It fluctuates under FULL buff conditions between 50-60dps. So 29dps with 95 strength under the cap, only worn haste at 34% and not using Yaulp - I believe the range of DPS Gamparse was clocking was very accurate.

I didn’t have nearly enough fights/data - that was the biggest problem.

If parsed on Mr Turtle and I expect to have much higher numbers.

Because he’s level 5 - not level 43.

Frostwrath is a fine weapon. It shouldn’t be giving you numbers so close to your ToV 2 hander. I suspect it is doing so because … your target was level 5.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion has a ratio of 1.25 with 34% haste.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath has a ratio of 1.46 with 34% haste.

You are not going to be getting less than half my DPS when the ratios are only 15% different. You should be getting at least 40 DPS on average, probably more like 50.

Your parser is bad.

[Snaggles]

For reference, the “info”. I figure rather than just being dismissive of the concept it’s best to show. The setup was rather perfect in terms of isolating variables. I can’t imagine parsing longer to get more consistent results. I’ll just compare myself to other guildies on raid targets over time and draw empirical conclusions.

Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average
Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps
Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps
Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps

As you can see the 2hs is not shining as it should. The dmg bonus/delay is higher than 1h so in harder to damage targets that advantage should be evidently clear. It’s part of the reason mage pets parse along with 1h knights on Vindi where 2h knights are much higher on the chart. Compared on lower level stuff where the the water pet can smoke casual monks.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion has a ratio of 1.25 with 34% haste.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath has a ratio of 1.46 with 34% haste.

You are not going to be getting less than half my DPS when the ratios are only 15% different. You should be getting at least 40 DPS on average, probably more like 50.

Your parser is bad.

Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

Those weapons are not in the same ballpark.

Gamparse is fine.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

Those weapons are not in the same ballpark.

Gamparse is fine.

You could share the logs so we can confirm it. I am not sure what the big deal is if Gamparse isn't working correctly. That should be a good thing, because you can get better parses using a different program, or manually doing it.

Based on your DPS values, it seems like something fishy is going on with Gamparse. I am guessing it is adding a bunch of extra time to the fight, which will lower the average DPS. It doesn't have a good handle on when the fights start and end.