Bring back the Dark Men of Odus

[Swish]

A lot of people in this thread aren't farming all that loot it seems.

[CrazyPro]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A questionable name? You're gonna have to explain to me that one.

Can you please explain to me what is "dark" about them if not the color of their skin? Because it sure doesn't have anything to do with the kind of magic they use as the guild wasn't exclusive to paineel factioned erudites. Even if that's somehow not the intent of the name, it flattens the identity into something merely visual and racialized.

When someone says "dark men", even if literally describing skin tone, the cultural baggage makes it sound like you're conflating race and morality, even if that wasn’t your intent.

There are so many other words you could pick that couldn't be construed as racist.
Why not <High Men of Odus>? <High Council of Erudin>, <Disciples of Erud>, literally anything else.

It just seems like an insensitive thing to name an Erudite-only guild.

[cd288]

The problem with the racism argument is that at no point in any channel, whether in-game, on the forums, or in Discord did any member of DMO ever make any racist statements. Nor were they ever banned or disciplined for racism. If they hadn't intentionally deleted the UN channel then they'd likely still be around.

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by CrazyPro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you please explain to me what is "dark" about them if not the color of their skin? Because it sure doesn't have anything to do with the kind of magic they use as the guild wasn't exclusive to paineel factioned erudites. Even if that's somehow not the intent of the name, it flattens the identity into something merely visual and racialized.

When someone says "dark men", even if literally describing skin tone, the cultural baggage makes it sound like you're conflating race and morality, even if that wasn’t your intent.

There are so many other words you could pick that couldn't be construed as racist.
Why not <High Men of Odus>? <High Council of Erudin>, <Disciples of Erud>, literally anything else.

It just seems like an insensitive thing to name an Erudite-only guild.

Interesting that you so elequently laid out this logical reasoning why using the word "dark" is inappropriate and in the same breathe recommended a name change that also used the word "men". Talk about identity flattening...

[Reiwa]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with the racism argument is that at no point in any channel, whether in-game, on the forums, or in Discord did any member of DMO ever make any racist statements. Nor were they ever banned or disciplined for racism. If they hadn't intentionally deleted the UN channel then they'd likely still be around.

They said plenty of racial supremacist stuff about Antonicans?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with the racism argument is that at no point in any channel, whether in-game, on the forums, or in Discord did any member of DMO ever make any racist statements. Nor were they ever banned or disciplined for racism. If they hadn't intentionally deleted the UN channel then they'd likely still be around.

You have access to everything every DMO member has ever said?

[CrazyPro]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting that you so elequently laid out this logical reasoning why using the word "dark" is inappropriate and in the same breathe recommended a name change that also used the word "men". Talk about identity flattening...

You bring up a good point. It's an antiquated use of the word to refer to an entire population of people that can come off as sexist nowadays.

But at the same time, I raise to you this:

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They cannot join our order but we accept them.

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by CrazyPro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you please explain to me what is "dark" about them if not the color of their skin? Because it sure doesn't have anything to do with the kind of magic they use as the guild wasn't exclusive to paineel factioned erudites. Even if that's somehow not the intent of the name, it flattens the identity into something merely visual and racialized.

When someone says "dark men", even if literally describing skin tone, the cultural baggage makes it sound like you're conflating race and morality, even if that wasn’t your intent.

There are so many other words you could pick that couldn't be construed as racist.
Why not <High Men of Odus>? <High Council of Erudin>, <Disciples of Erud>, literally anything else.

It just seems like an insensitive thing to name an Erudite-only guild.

Let's break this down from multiple viewpoints, as I believe your argument is intrinsically flawed from multiple facets.

1) Dark doesn't need to be defined. It can be left mysterious, just like how certain texts rely on interpretation of the reader, part of that interpretation adds to the mystery and the fun of it.

However --

2) Let's hypothetically grant your point and say Dark is linked to skin color, and that is what it refers to (this is hypothetical, I will reiterate, this is not what I am claiming).

My question is, what is your point if it is?

That's not racist, that's a descriptor. It's not assigning character qualities neither positive or negative, it's a physical descriptor speaking to a demographic. There is nothing inheriently racist about this.

It's the same thing as asking about a person's race on a population census. There is neither positive nor negative qualities about this, merely used as a tool in human languages as a descriptor.

The problem is that it is YOU that are assigning some kind of nefarious meaning to a certain type of physical description. Your personal (and illogical) inference betrays exactly what you think about certain types of people, and that simply by mentioning a physical descriptor that it carries a negative connotation.

The only logical justification to explain your interpretation is that you have some kind of inherent bias and racism you are applying to the term, and that you are projecting that interpretation on others.

You're actually the problem here, assuming that's what you meant.

I'll be charitable and assume you don't actually mean that however, do you?

These sub 100 Int Antonicans man. Gotta spell out literally everything for them.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by ya.dingus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These sub 100 Int Antonicans man. Gotta spell out literally everything for them.

What's this? Ableism?!

[ya.dingus]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's this? Ableism?!

That depends on the situation. Is it a disability, or simply being willfully ignorant as the cause (having below 100 int/wis)?

One's fine, the other isn't.