Sirken's proposal

[Versus]

Originally Posted by fullmetalcoxman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yea, except this is a fucking game, not real life. Raiding isn't supposed to be a second god damned job.

Phisting: Last 30 Days: 28% of raids Last 60 Days: 28% of raids Last 90 Days: 22% of raids Lifetime (07/06/11 - 12/18/13): 35% of raids

You don't have to be a neckbeard having mouthbreather to get gear in EQ. Next excuse please.

[Jorgam]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Lastly, it is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, if you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible.

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much. Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

[Eloian]

Ute da man, Original Dr.Who avatar, Political junkie, dern nice guy. Rock on brother.

Eloian Bushlover (Any Necros about? I'm a ranger...well you know the rest)
57 Halfelf Ranger
<BDA>

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.

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[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Jorgam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much.

Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

But that's the mistake I am pointing you too. Every big socialism we have seen has also been an autocracy. It is not because autocracies and socialisms go together, it is because when the Soviet Union became a world power in opposition to the United States in a struggle for hegemony following World War II, each had to ideologically polarize from one another, and seed their ideological views into their blocks of states. So you have the United States using the Marshall Plan to instill capitalist democratic systems into western Europe. The USSR did similar, but did it for autocratic socialism. However, the United States still liked autocratic regimes, as they made for an easy way to control other states, such as what the United States did through much of the 50s and 60s in South American. For that reason, we ideologically polarized ourselves from Socialism as a concept, rather than from Autocracy. You cannot dissect the two of these from one another on grand scales, because of this fact.

In a similar way, you can't really segregate capitalism from democracy in many cases due to this same fact, except when looking in more recent years at anocracies and the growth of new states and new political systems in the post-Soviet era. Socialism is a common practice in many parts of the United States, but it is not called that. There are numerous places around the world that run more socialist systems, independent of autocratic regimes, but they are all small. No large socialist state has ever arisen due to the ideological polarization of the Cold War and the seeding done by the victor, the United States. Instead, you have to look at small scale versions of socialism if you're going to have a hope of understanding how it works as a system. So, if you want to say Socialism falls flat on its face, it isn't that simple, because it's confounded by even more powerful evidence that Autocracies fall on their faces, and your variables are confused.

But this is all beside the point... What is being suggested on this server by the casual raiders is not Socialism. It doesn't come in any way close to fitting what Socialism is by definition.

For anyone passing through and curious on what this all actually is in a more elaborate way than my ramblings, check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccunka4.

As for schadenfreude, as it stands with Rogean's proposal, there'd be around 2-3 mobs a day (14-21 a week for 3 guilds to fight over) for the Hardcore tier to go for, and 1 mob for each casual guild (assuming a rotation) each week. This is more than enough, really. It isn't asking for hand outs, its asking to let us enjoy the game, enjoy our more relaxed, less cutthroat competition with one another, and let them enjoy their more cutthroat competition. We each like our side of it, why make one suffer for the other? The only reason I can think is schadenfreude.

[Rhambuk]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that's the mistake I am pointing you too. Every big socialism we have seen has also been an autocracy. It is not because autocracies and socialisms go together, it is because when the Soviet Union became a world power in opposition to the United States in a struggle for hegemony following World War II, each had to ideologically polarize from one another, and seed their ideological views into their blocks of states. So you have the United States using the Marshall Plan to instill capitalist democratic systems into western Europe. The USSR did similar, but did it for autocratic socialism. However, the United States still liked autocratic regimes, as they made for an easy way to control other states, such as what the United States did through much of the 50s and 60s in South American. For that reason, we ideologically polarized ourselves from Socialism as a concept, rather than from Autocracy. You cannot dissect the two of these from one another on grand scales, because of this fact.

In a similar way, you can't really segregate capitalism from democracy in many cases due to this same fact, except when looking in more recent years at anocracies and the growth of new states and new political systems in the post-Soviet era. Socialism is a common practice in many parts of the United States, but it is not called that. There are numerous places around the world that run more socialist systems, independent of autocratic regimes, but they are all small. No large socialist state has ever arisen due to the ideological polarization of the Cold War and the seeding done by the victor, the United States. Instead, you have to look at small scale versions of socialism if you're going to have a hope of understanding how it works as a system. So, if you want to say Socialism falls flat on its face, it isn't that simple, because it's confounded by even more powerful evidence that Autocracies fall on their faces, and your variables are confused.

But this is all beside the point... What is being suggested on this server by the casual raiders is not Socialism. It doesn't come in any way close to fitting what Socialism is by definition.

For anyone passing through and curious on what this all actually is in a more elaborate way than my ramblings, check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccunka4.

As for schadenfreude, as it stands with Rogean's proposal, there'd be around 2-3 mobs a day (14-21 a week for 3 guilds to fight over) for the Hardcore tier to go for, and 1 mob for each casual guild (assuming a rotation) each week. This is more than enough, really. It isn't asking for hand outs, its asking to let us enjoy the game, enjoy our more relaxed, less cutthroat competition with one another, and let them enjoy their more cutthroat competition. We each like our side of it, why make one suffer for the other? The only reason I can think is schadenfreude.

im guessing you dont cut meat at the grocery store?

big fan of socialism btw

[Obrae]

Originally Posted by CodyF86 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not even directed specifically at any of your points in that post, but your attitude
is part of the problem.

Aaradin
The A-Team

I understand what you mean, myself i am only reacting to what i see with my bag of popcorn tho [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
But i did felt a change in the wind.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Rhambuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im guessing you dont cut meat at the grocery store?

big fan of socialism btw

Lol. I'm a political scientist graduate student that focuses on international institutions and comparative public opinion. In the off-time, I work as a maintenance worker at a hazardous and industrial gas and chemical distributor.

The conversation really didn't need to deviate into socialism, but to suggest that what the casuals want here is socialism is just an irresponsible analogy to pander to the normal knee jerk reaction against it as a word. It has nothing to do with what is going on here, lol.

[Galelor]

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. i know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets."

Sirken the Great

I played live up until 07ish. EQ IS one of those games in the literal sense from LDoN forward (they even went back and instances PoTime when OoW was released...) and in the metaphorical sense since go live. Once competition became intense enough, (not even close to as bad as what happens on p99,) Sony understood that they needed to instance raid zones so everyone capable of killing x raid content could get a shot at it.

During the classic days there were metaphorical versions of instancing because there were many servers and each server only had 1-3 guilds capable of killing raid mobs. When comparing classic competitive raiding to p99s competitive raiding, multiple servers was a version of instancing! In classic, most servers didn't have all raid mobs dead the second they spawned. The high level goal of getting to mobs quickly was to get to mobs before they ended up on euro time (there were obviously races to spawns, but nothing like we see here.)

Guilds had a 'raid start time' not a bat phone... (Do you remember being docked DKP because you were late for raid start times? Do you remember PUGing dragons? I do. They weren't even called PUGs then, they were 'open raids' and sometimes they were scheduled days ahead of time on the forums...) If there was too much competition on 1 server, guilds literally switched servers. There isn't really that option here...

The point is, there was less competition on live because of the vastly smaller amounts of max level characters, no bat phone/vent (for the most part), the number of raid guilds per server was a fraction of what it is here, and the fact that there were tons of servers to choose from.

p99 is horribly overburdened at level 60. It is like 5 or 7 classic servers worth of raid guilds all jammed into one server. No one is going to be happy with the results of a raid agreement, if there is one, because no guild is going to get enough raid mobs. When looking at what we have here currently, or what could possibly be agreed to in some kind of sever wide guild agreement, trying to compare this raid community to the classic raid experience is laughable at best.

The only way to keep only 1 server running, and allow even a remotely classic experience in the raid scene, is to set up some sort of instancing (or partial instancing) to alleviate some of the congestion of having so many high level guilds on 1 server.

I'd also like to add that I personally don't believe Velious is going to solve this particular problem. High value targets with top end gear are still going to be kept perma down (NToV/AoW/ST/ETC.)