Class R union votes?

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even though no sane person would ever argue that solo pulling Inny to a waiting raid force at the Hate port up for a clean kill is grounds for loot destruction / suspension you'll get to deal with those sorts of arguments on every single successful kill.

You mean pulling an AoE based raid mob to a zone in where people are trying to recover their corpses or prepare for a second attempt.

[skipdog]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The stuff about VP and Trak teeth is spot on tbh.

It's one thing to sit around with a few groups of people and hope to win that FTE dice roll but it's another beast entirely trying to win Trak FTEs doing that coth race. TMO and IB are significantly better geared on a per player basis than BDA or Taken which means they'll always be able to engage Trak with a minimal force so they're almost always winning FTE and successfully converting it to a kill.

We had the run of VP for a week and even with a scheduled raid we had to scrounge up every single keyed character we had / share those accounts with trusted core members in order to take care of business.

Let's also talk about this "dominating class R" stuff. What constitutes dominating? 12/12 lockout? 10/12? 8/12?

Always hilarious to see a guild leader like Chest pretend that IB/TMO's individual gear levels have the slightest thing to do with getting FTE on a mob like Trak.

Does anybody else actually believe that?

[Troubled]

Originally Posted by skipdog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Always hilarious to see a guild leader like Chest pretend that IB/TMO's individual gear levels have the slightest thing to do with getting FTE on a mob like Trak.

Does anybody else actually believe that?

If you don't see the correlation between getting an early engage on Trak with less and having a higher mean level/better geared force then maybe you need to go back to raid college, chief.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by skipdog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Always hilarious to see a guild leader like Chest pretend that IB/TMO's individual gear levels have the slightest thing to do with getting FTE on a mob like Trak.

Does anybody else actually believe that?

Stop being dense... he meant it takes less VP-geared players to FTE with a certain level of confidence the kill will be successful than a rag-tag force of banded armor and fine steel equipped Class R welfare scum.

Anyone can FTE, but FTE doesn't mean shit unless you can kill the mob.

[fullmetalcoxman]

120 hour windows? holy fuck, that would be awful.

[Argh]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rotation is player made. The staff said they would never enforce a rotation. I honestly don't know why anyone would want to poke this bees nest.

They wouldn't be enforcing a rotation. GM's have always reserved the power to forcibly move guilds to Class C if they deem it necessary to do so. Taken and BDA are obvious Class C guilds and the only thing protecting them from being forcibly moved to C is that they don't dominate Class R.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They wouldn't be enforcing a rotation. GM's have always reserved the power to forcibly move guilds to Class C if they deem it necessary to do so. Taken and BDA are obvious Class C guilds and the only thing protecting them from being forcibly moved to C is that they don't dominate Class R.

Obviously class C. BDA barely had enough keys to get into VP to kill uncontested dragons on raids scheduled for prime time, even while sharing accounts just to have the numbers. The only way any class R guild could be ready for Class C is to spend 2 years taking 1 of every 3 mobs in the rotation. Could be 1 year, but you gotta remember half the members you key find their way to TMO once they're geared out on R mobs.

[wycca]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Obviously class C. BDA barely had enough keys to get into VP to kill uncontested dragons on raids scheduled for prime time, even while sharing accounts just to have the numbers. The only way any class R guild could be ready for Class C is to spend 2 years taking 1 of every 3 mobs in the rotation. Could be 1 year, but you gotta remember half the members you key find their way to TMO once they're geared out on R mobs.

The biggest barrier to entry to VP (and to a lesser extent Class C) regarding Class R guilds is from the rotation itself - the limited # of Trak Teeth that Class R guilds have incoming.

Guilds who leave the rotation, and end up on constant lock-outs, would indeed likely get GM attention, but it would take quite a few spawn cycles of being on constant lockout to be at risk, and I'm guessing the # of Trak kills (and thus teeth) would be a significant factor. The constant lockouts thing, due to the cycle speed of mobs, would probably take at least 2 months, probably 3+. Also, Velious is somewhat closer rather than further...and as others have said, the Class system is just a bandaid until then. Quite frankly, I'd be very surprised if a guild was forcibly moved at this point. It's just hard to justify without a significant history of perma-lockouts and trak kills IMO. So...why bother at this late point? One last factor to keep in mind is...if it's 3-4 guilds all sharing constant lockouts, it's going to be alot harder to justify bumping that many guilds versus just 1. I'm guessing there would be cover in #'s, at least for a lengthy period of time. Basically, I wouldn't rely on the GM's to do anything to protect the rotation itself, it's a player construct, and competition is what Class R was originally meant to be - a restricted playground to help guilds grow to be competitive in Class C.

I will add this caveat: One of the oft-overlooked aspects of the rotation is that the changes driven by the 3 larger guilds have made the smaller guilds become more capable of 24hr kills. This doesn't necessarily translate into them being better FTE guilds at this point, but they have become better at mobilization at all hours, batphoning, and are massively improved on execution as a result - ie they're significantly more capable than they were a year ago as a whole. Taken & other guilds have expanded into FFA competition and had successes. The only thing lacking is Class R guilds competing for FFA Traks really (which would likely be another factor in GM consideration for movement). Conclusion - the smaller guilds will likely rise to the task in some form were the rotation to end, either as a joint force to compete as Raev said, or on their own. They all have good groups of players and I'm confident they'll rise to the challenge. I think some of the larger R guilds would be very surprised at how capable some smaller guilds are...so much they may wish they'd never left the rotation.

The OP has horrid ideas though. Those things will make other guilds less competitive. If you want to see more competition, limit windows to 6-8hrs, and change repop mobs to be all FFA (and eliminate FFA from regular mobs). That would be hella fun. Also, while people are lamenting the raid scene, I hate to break it to you, but the self-imposed rules I've seen IB and TMO impose on themselves are fairer and more sane than the server rules/FFA scene. It's a ton of fun quite honestly in VP and on other mobs, it's all a non-bard footrace, not stupid COTH ducking or shit. Only stupid encounters are FFA when there's other guilds there, then it devolves. Quite simply the worst part of the raid scene on p99 isn't necessarily in Class C. The attendance requirements in C guilds are lower than some Class R guilds, and there's alot of friendly, patient, & helpful people who have made the transition fun & exciting for me personally. Ie, I've found that alot of the trepidation I had for looking at C guilds and Class C in general was completely unfounded. And despite perceptions, both TMO and IB would love more guilds - its fun as hell, and yes, while there are disputes, there's alot of respect and even friendly CR/help that happens between us. Most of us have friends in the other guild and grats each other on good drops.

If the will exists to keep the rotation intact then leave it intact - it's a great example of some really cool people working together in order to share a limited resource. It's undoubtedly helped alot of people to experience & enjoy the raid scene. Frankly I think it's great, and I think it would be bad if the rotation ended early (sorry but it's all over in Velious IMO). Nevertheless, the design of the class system and the things GM's pay attention to aren't necessarily aligned with a player-run rotation, so bear in mind the caveats. As much as it's fun to hate on <random Class R guild> etc at times, they're all responsible for something really cool continuing to exist. Work with them to preserve it, and don't rely at all on GM action IMO.

[RaefLaFrenz]

Originally Posted by wycca [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Conclusion - the smaller guilds will likely rise to the task in some form were the rotation to end, either as a joint force to compete as Raev said, or on their own. They all have good groups of players and I'm confident they'll rise to the challenge. I think some of the larger R guilds would be very surprised at how capable some smaller guilds are...so much they may wish they'd never left the rotation.

Spoken like a true leader who bailed for greener pastures....funny you are here squawking about how much potential there is for small guilds to succeed sans a rotation yet here you are having already left this exact group of players. Maybe the heat got too hot for you in the kitchen?

You also seem very biased in your assessment that the small guilds will band together and give the bigger R fish hell if the rotation were to crumble, it's just really amusing that you want no part of that revolution and would prefer to just hold your hand out in a different kind of line.

Originally Posted by wycca [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The OP has horrid ideas though. Those things will make other guilds less competitive. If you want to see more competition, limit windows to 6-8hrs, and change repop mobs to be all FFA (and eliminate FFA from regular mobs). That would be hella fun. Also, while people are lamenting the raid scene, I hate to break it to you, but the self-imposed rules I've seen IB and TMO impose on themselves are fairer and more sane than the server rules/FFA scene. It's a ton of fun quite honestly in VP and on other mobs, it's all a non-bard footrace, not stupid COTH ducking or shit. Only stupid encounters are FFA when there's other guilds there, then it devolves. Quite simply the worst part of the raid scene on p99 isn't necessarily in Class C. The attendance requirements in C guilds are lower than some Class R guilds, and there's alot of friendly, patient, & helpful people who have made the transition fun & exciting for me personally. Ie, I've found that alot of the trepidation I had for looking at C guilds and Class C in general was completely unfounded. And despite perceptions, both TMO and IB would love more guilds - its fun as hell, and yes, while there are disputes, there's alot of respect and even friendly CR/help that happens between us. Most of us have friends in the other guild and grats each other on good drops.

this makes me laugh.

How many hours did you put in tracking for A-Team targets? Seems to me you don't know a whole lot about the FFA raid scene. There's no COH ducking ( Thanks Taken :P ) and foot races are great when there is only 1 of two possible outcomes ( TMO or IB)

Try some races with more than 2 guilds and let me know how that works out for you Cobble....oh wait I forgot you gave up your leadership position when things were not going how you wanted it to.

Of course TMO was friendly to you....you are a lvl 60 cleric and they are a dying guild.....thats a perfect match. Never seen someone become such a bias blowhard the second they change tags, but I guess maybe you always had it in you?

[Raev]

Originally Posted by RaefLaFrenz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

troll

I'm kinda curious who this guy is. Neither the writing style nor the opinions really remind me of anyone in The A-Team.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow

What makes any raid on p99 a "challenge" is the level of sockery or bullshit tactics employed by the competition.

Sockery, definitely. Bullshit tactics? I mean two raid forces in the same zone competing for the same mob in the end is just dumb. Which is why I like rumbles; the challenge is to clear the content as fast as possible.