RIP Chester Bennington

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't tell if this is flippant or serious

he's being flippantly trollish.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelonpai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it a very good point that if you brain not working you have less agency. this a point lotta people just don't get.

This right here.

Healthy minded people can't grasp or understand that someone dealing with mental illness simply lack the cognition and thinking process of a healthy/normal brain so making clear logical decisions is quite difficult when mentally ill.

that's this whole conversation in a nutshell too.

People that have never gone through it, or not known someone who has gone through mental illness will struggle to empathize with the actions of someone that is mentally ill.

[Cecily]

You're making a lot of noise suggesting sucide means a mentally ill brain and not accounting for it being a respectable, logical choice. It was a decision, most probably mulled upon for years and finally happened. Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person. If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're making a lot of noise suggesting sucide means a mentally ill brain and not accounting for it being a respectable, logical choice. It was a decision, most probably mulled upon for years and finally happened. Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person. If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

Danke.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're making a lot of noise suggesting sucide means a mentally ill brain and not accounting for it being a respectable, logical choice. It was a decision, most probably mulled upon for years and finally happened. Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person. If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

Yeah you right, I am sure he was thinking logically and of quite sound mind when he did it.

He had a history of mental illness that was documented, but I am sure in this particular incident he was thinking quite clearly and was feeling really healthy and normal. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You poked fun at his death, ridiculed people that enjoy his music, and now I am supposed to try to take your contradictory post seriously and believe you write it in an attempt to have a logical adult conversation about this topic?

Nah.

You just being a disrespectful nasty little troll. I think trolling is fine but not when you do it with disrespectful comments making light of a situation that others are deeply affected by such as this one.

Not cool, dude.

[Pokesan]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah you right, I am sure he was thinking logically and of quite sound mind when he did it.

He had a history of mental illness that was documented, but I am sure in this particular incident he was thinking quite clearly and was feeling really healthy and normal. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You poked fun at his death, ridiculed people that enjoy his music, and now I am supposed to try to take your contradictory post seriously and believe you write it in an attempt to have a logical adult conversation about this topic?

Nah.

You just being a disrespectful nasty little troll. I think trolling is fine but not when you do it with disrespectful comments making light of a situation that others are deeply affected by such as this one.

Not cool, dude.

based on previous comments and demographics, it's a safe bet Cecily is better acquainted with the topic than you. Dismissing her as a troll isn't helpful or useful.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh he was mentally ill takes away from whatever shred of dignity remains to the person.

Does telling a cancer patient they have cancer take away their dignity? Mental illness has a stigma because it's "mental", but the reality is it's just another physical organ failure that people have no control over, and blaming them for an illness they can't control seems a lot more undignified to me.

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you aren't suicidal and can't relate, pigeonholing someone as mentally ill makes sense, but that's crazy. Bunch of people with no idea what they aren't talking about.

I've been checked in to a hospital mental ward ... twice. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't because I made bad decisions, it was because some chemicals in my brain decided to go haywire out of the blue one day. Once I got some medicine from a doctor to balance out the chemicals I got my life back ... exactly the same as sufferers of other (non-mental) diseases.

So yeah, I know a little bit about having your body turn on you in a way that makes you act crazy (or, in particular, suicidal). And I know that pretending someone has agency when they don't is as cruel as blaming someone who dies of thirst because they were too weak from malaria to go get water. People suffering from any disease, physical or mental, deserve compassion ... it just might take a bit more empathy to have that same compassion for crazy people.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does telling a cancer patient they have cancer take away their dignity? Mental illness has a stigma because it's "mental", but the reality is it's just another physical organ failure that people have no control over, and blaming them for an illness they can't control seems a lot more undignified to me.



I've been checked in to a hospital mental ward ... twice. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't because I made bad decisions, it was because some chemicals in my brain decided to go haywire out of the blue one day. Once I got some medicine from a doctor to balance out the chemicals I got my life back ... exactly the same as sufferers of other (non-mental) diseases.

So yeah, I know a little bit about having your body turn on you in a way that makes you act crazy (or, in particular, suicidal). And I know that pretending someone has agency when they don't is as cruel as blaming someone who dies of thirst because they were too weak from malaria to go get water. People suffering from any disease, physical or mental, deserve compassion ... it just might take a bit more empathy to have that same compassion for crazy people.

Who says suicide has to be caused by an illness? It can be a perfectly logical and ethical choice and, I'd argue, a basic human right. The fact that you equate suicidal with crazy speaks to the perversion of humanist values in our society by religious ones.

I mean, when suicidal ideation or any other non-normative thinking would be cause for a diagnosis of 'mental illness', of course suicide is almost always going to be associated with mental illness. But when you look at it closely it's far more of a value judgment than it is clinical pathology. It's deviant behavior more than disease. And that's suicide I'm talking about, not clinical depression, although they are related.

Originally Posted by David Foster Wallace

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”

[loramin]

P.S. I've also had Bell's Palsy once, which is when an infection near a cranial nerve makes half of your face paralyzed for months, sort of like being a stroke victim. With both the Bell's Palsy and my mental illness the exact same thing happened: something went physically wrong in my brain.

But, no one ever said that I was making a choice to have my face paralyzed, or blamed me for my right eye going dry because I couldn't blink.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. I've also had Bell's Palsy once, which is when an infection near a cranial nerve makes half of your face paralyzed for months, sort of like being a stroke victim. With both the Bell's Palsy and my mental illness the exact same thing happened: something went physically wrong in my brain.

But, no one ever said that I was making a choice to have my face paralyzed, or blamed me for my right eye going dry because I couldn't blink.

Consider a 75 year old woman (my grandmother) who lived a rich and fulfilling life, and stared down the barrel of totally untreatable Alzheimer's disease. Her brain progressively rotted and robbed her of her very humanity before she died in agony, placing an unimaginable financial and emotional burden on her caregivers. She muttered "I want to die" for years, right up til the very end.

If I were ever in that situation I'd kill myself. And it would be the right decision.