Hugs and Kisses XOXO

[Nexii]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.

Well that's where you're wrong. EQ was never about giving a participation trophy to everyone for just playing. That was the very appeal of it to hardcore gamers.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Nexii [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well that's where you're wrong. EQ was never about giving a participation trophy to everyone for just playing. That was the very appeal of it to hardcore gamers.

Allow me to re-quote my own post for you:

Ultimately I reject the whole "the game itself doesn't matter" mentality. We are here to play game, that's the entire point. And unless I'm mistaken the purpose of the whoie project is to enable just that: lots of people getting together to play a fun old game.

Rotations enable far more people to play the game: they let P99 do what it does better. And you know what having them, for one zone, would cost? Far, far less headaches for the staff and the "competitors' on this server having to "compete" PvE style ... like people did back on live.

It's funny, I never said anything about participation trophies anywhere. I never said anything about "softcore gamers" killing Yelinak either. Maybe I didn't because nothing about rotations in any way guarantees "participation trophies", and there's nothing "hardcore" about the current system.

If anything Aftermath is the biggest giver of "participation trophies" on the server. To the vast majority of your membership that's what the loot is about: their warm body shows up, and they get some loot.

It's almost like you completely disingenuously claimed to disagree with me while actually disagreeing with a total straw man.

[lookitsjb]

Apologies for posting and then being a bit aloof; had some IRL shit to take care of (I know, how dare I!

The initial intent of this thread wasn't to go down a "what's best for ToV" or even restructure raiding in general. It was to work together to figure out how can we fix the clusterfuckery that is concessions.

Ultimately; you're 100% correct. In most cases, it isn't just 1 guild getting fucked over but if that's the case maybe some sort of round-robin style shit goes into play?

The main issue with concessions as it stands now is people can fuck up intentionally (or not) and just say "we'll stop going for the next few". This allows them to focus in other areas of the raid scene without worrying about that one mob, and also bears 0 value if it's a target that they don't normally get anyways.

Example from some RNF threads:
- AG kites statue and concedes two
- AM pulls Eashan with an active FTE on Lady N
- AG trains Dagarn mages and doesn't allow enough time for the mages to be "ready" for CotH and pulls anyways
- AM manipulates Yeli root to hold an FTE
- PSG kills Koi off of another guild's (AM) FTE

All of these concessions just mean the guild doesn't have to bother competing for the specific mob, and it was argued in the PSG-Koi and AG-Statue that "they don't even get enough where concessions matter". So why concede? Make it so they have to contest it and relinquish loot instead.

Side note though:
Yes. NToV is fucked and rooting would probably make it a lot more competitive/easier but I wonder how it would work considering the CT fuckery. One guild clears Fear and another snipes CT. You wouldn't need to be the best guild for the crawl you'd just need to be the fastest leap-frogger.
Also from reading Braknar's discord dump; The idea of Vulak only spawning when all dragons have spawned would be awesome as well.

[Heebs13]

Originally Posted by lookitsjb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NToV is fucked and rooting would probably make it a lot more competitive/easier but I wonder how it would work considering the CT fuckery. One guild clears Fear and another snipes CT. You wouldn't need to be the best guild for the crawl you'd just need to be the fastest leap-frogger.

Leapfrogging would be possible but there's a good chance while you're up there dicking around / stalemating with another guild over who is going to pull first, another dragon could spawn and now you're both DQed and another guild starts clearing to that. It's in everyone's best interest to clear towards a specific target as quickly as possible without any fuckery.

[lookitsjb]

Originally Posted by Heebs13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Leapfrogging would be possible but there's a good chance while you're up there dicking around / stalemating with another guild over who is going to pull first, another dragon could spawn and now you're both DQed and another guild starts clearing to that. It's in everyone's best interest to clear towards a specific target as quickly as possible without any fuckery.

Again, not here to attempt to fix NToV, as I feel the raid scene (as a whole) is fucked due to simple rules being blatantly ignored and/or skewed via lawyer questing. Ultimately what you're asking for/discussing is a CSR/Dev level fix. What I'm bringing to this thread is a community level discussion about the player-agreement of mob concessions.

[Heebs13]

Originally Posted by lookitsjb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, not here to attempt to fix NToV, as I feel the raid scene (as a whole) is fucked due to simple rules being blatantly ignored and/or skewed via lawyer questing. Ultimately what you're asking for/discussing is a CSR/Dev level fix. What I'm bringing to this thread is a community level discussion about the player-agreement of mob concessions.

I'm struggling to think of how a concession system in which the conceding party had to give loot rights to the offended guild would even work.

What happens when there are 3 guilds present? Does the conceding guild have to give loot to both the other guilds from one kill? From two kills?

What happens if the conceding guild almost never gets to kill that mob anyway? They'd just... never kill it again, or take months to do so.

Ultimately what makes the concession system (sort of) work is the idea that if you don't concede a mob as per the rules, the threat of a raid ban hangs over your head. Implementing a new concession system as you're suggesting would require that same threat of enforcement and therefore a rule change, so in effect this is ALSO a CSR-level fix. If there was no threat of enforcement from the CSR staff, no one would do it.

And it doesn't fix the lawyerquesting; it just adds another layer of lawyerquesting. IMO if people want to get away from the 20 pages of elf law, the only way that's going to happen is by coding the solutions into the game. EQ was one of the first games of its kind so they didn't have a lot of this stuff ironed out back in 1999, but I'm sure you're aware that every expansion and every MMO that has come out since has addressed the problems of the genre not by server rules but by actual game design systems. Obviously, a lot of us here disagree with the instancing solution that took over most games, but the point remains that ultimately coding the game to prevent these types of issues in the first place is going to be the only way to really solve this sort of thing.

[DMN]

This may sound strange given how MMORPGs are done now, but back in the day all the servers had different rules. Basically a GM would say X/Y was wrong/right and it would become standard on the server, but not all servers had the same rules.. That said, I'd guess the majoirty of servers worked on the DPS-wins model and usually had a general "hands off" type enforcement. But some of them did have really restrictive rules about raiding/training/causing other players grief in raid content. I'd also guess it was born out of laziness that most of them allowed a lot of chicanery.

[Bboboo]

just play red

[doormat00]

Originally Posted by Bboboo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

just play red

According to Braknar's reddit comments Red doesn't even get checked for RMT.

[Heebs13]

Originally Posted by doormat00 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

According to Braknar's reddit comments Red doesn't even get checked for RMT.

Maybe he wants more potential buyers.