Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Literally every person in this thread realizes there is no possible way to have an honest argument with you because you're unable to argue honestly. Do you ever stop to wonder why people gave up trying to have honest arguments with you? I'll give you a hint: It's not because you're right and they just couldn't handle it

Keep on makin VQ look bad tho. I'm sure they appreciate it.

I am bringing factual data and math to the discussion, and I engage with anybody who isn't trolling in a respectful manner.

I am sorry that simply claiming my data is invalid because you don't like it is not a valid method of argumentation.

The only thing people can see in this thread is all of the trolls who just keep throwing tantrums because they can't have an honest discussion where people disagree with them.

The post history is quite clear who the trolls are here in this thread.

The reason why people don't post here is because anybody who disagrees with the trolls are relentlessly trolled lol. It happens every time.

[PlsNoBan]

The post history is the clearest thing that has ever been clear before

You're extremely dishonest in your arguments and are quite possibly the most stubborn thick headed person I've ever encountered in my life IRL or on the internet. The post history shows this very clearly for all to see. This is why people have largely given up trying to have legitimate debate with you. You've moved the goalpost dozens of times. You assert your opinions as facts and dismiss others opinions. You have an extreme bias that you're unable to hide or get rid of. The post history shows all of this with extreme clarity. Not sure why you would want to draw attention to the post history here. It doesn't look good for you. I'd rather make funny meme/troll posts than serious posts where I argue dishonestly constantly and act like a stubborn child.

Every post makes VQ look worse and worse. Unfortunate for them [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am bringing factual data and math to the discussion, and I engage with anybody who isn't trolling in a respectful manner.

No. You have simply provided irrelevant data, and you have continued to ignore my posts - and multiple posts of others, or specific content from their posts - which have explained this to you via simple statements of irrefutable facts - which cannot be refuted. This really isn't hard hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am sorry that simply claiming my data is invalid because you don't like it is not a valid method of argumentation.

You have provided zero relevant data/evidence to support the Quoted implication that others have "simply claimed your data is invalid because they don't like it", thus it is simply an unsubstantiated implication (and probably false).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing people can see in this thread is all of the trolls who just keep throwing tantrums because they can't have an honest discussion where people disagree with them.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The post history is quite clear who the trolls are here in this thread.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your apparent claim that you are not acting poorly or trolling.

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your - repeated - claims that others are trolls/trolling.

These are irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The post history is the clearest thing that has ever been clear before

You're extremely dishonest in your arguments and are quite possibly the most stubborn thick headed person I've ever encountered in my life IRL or on the internet. The post history shows this very clearly for all to see. This is why people have largely given up trying to have legitimate debate with you. You've moved the goalpost dozens of times. You assert your opinions as facts and dismiss others opinions. You have an extreme bias that you're unable to hide or get rid of. The post history shows all of this with extreme clarity. Not sure why you would want to draw attention to the post history here. It doesn't look good for you. I'd rather make funny meme/troll posts than serious posts where I argue dishonestly constantly and act like a stubborn child.

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else.

If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol. You are basically describing yourself here, and don't realize it.

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else. If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol.

What the fuck are you even talking about? 20 x 10 x 60 does in fact = 12000. We're in agreement there. Congratulations. Not sure how this is even relevant to anything that's been discussed in the last few pages? Why the fuck are we talking about mana per hour right now and how is that relevant? What kind of drugs are you on?

VQ please. Save yourself some embarrassment here and do something.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

It is unclear what - specifically - you are - laughably - attempting to objectively state is the Quoted poster's opinion. Please elaborate?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition you are using for "strawman"?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe that "saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation" is somehow relevant to this discussion. Please elaborate?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else.

You have provided zero evidence to support the claim that someone else "is the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else", therefore, the claim is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What the fuck are you even talking about? 20 x 10 x 60 does in fact = 12000. We're in agreement there. Congratulations. Not sure how this is even relevant to anything that's been discussed in the last few pages? Why the fuck are we talking about mana per hour right now and how is that relevant? What kind of drugs are you on?

VQ please. Save yourself some embarrassment here and do something.

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

I literally addressed this multiple times and you just seem to ignore it. Or once again your opinion disagrees and obviously your opinion is correct and nobody elses is so you dismiss it. Or you move the goalpost again.etc.etc

Your entire "DPS breakpoint" argument is retarded for a long list of reasons. First of which being that DPS varies. No combination of classes and/or pets will ever do exactly 200 dps to every mob. You keep trying to precisely math out everything and act like everything is going to be exactly the way you math it even if you change conditions or variables. This tells me you have absolutely zero experience in programming or any kind of software development. Unexpected things happen all the time. This is the entire point of things like unit tests. No human being can 100% accurately predict the outcome of such a complex system with all the different variables and conditions present. Despite what you may think the code running behind the scenes in a game like everquest is fairly complex. Not to mention introducing the unpredictability of human behavior into the equation.

All of that set aside. Even if you were 100% correct about your assessment. You'd still be wrong in assuming that just because you don't get an extra named/PH spawn in a short play session that additional DPS is completely worthless. This is just straight up factually incorrect. It's nothing but your opinion that you've been spewing as fact for dozens of pages. There are tons of people that play this game for super long periods of time per session. I used to regularly play 12-16 hour days at one point in my life. Back when I was younger and unemployed. If I'm not mistaken your own calculation said an extra named cycle would be gained at 11 hours. There are many people that play that long or longer per day. Even if you DON'T get an extra named/PH cycle you can still kill additional mobs per hour. Many many camps (including fungi king that we use as an example often here) has A LOT of mobs within pulling range. I don't know about you but I prefer to play the game and not kill 3 spawns and go AFK for 25 minutes. More trash kills = objectively better. Even if its only a minimal benefit.

Ultimately I think the main crux of the disagreement is that you place an insanely high value on the utility and "safety" aspect that you feel a shaman brings. This isn't backed by data or math. This is simply your preference/opinion being asserted as fact. So far everyone here except you agrees (If you quote fucking argumentum ad populum one more time I swear to fuck) that a group with a cleric and 2 enchanters has MORE than sufficient utility and safety. This is why everyone keeps saying "redundant" in reference to shaman. They don't really bring anything the group doesn't already have. I leveled a enc/enc duo with no healer and we legitimately died like less than 5 times the entire leveling process. I honestly think it was 2 or 3 times over dozens of LONG sessions. It's not an exaggeration to say a cleric is the only safety net this group needs. You don't need to be gods gift to everquest or a pro player or any of that nonsense. 2 reasonably well played enchanters and 1 halfway decent cleric is an unstoppable killing machine. You're kind of an insane person if you really think that group is like "Oh man I really wish we had a shaman so we don't wipe". That's fucking ridiculous man. I know how much you love your class but get fucking real.

Summary: Enc/Enc/Clr doesn't NEED anything. The only real benefit to be gained is more DPS or perhaps some utility the group doesn't already have. Shaman DPS is pretty mediocre and almost all of their utility the group already has. Thus they would not be anyone's (except DSM's) first choice as the 4th filler for this group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I literally addressed this multiple times and you just seem to ignore it. Or once again your opinion disagrees and obviously your opinion is correct and nobody elses is so you dismiss it. Or you move the goalpost again.etc.etc

Your entire "DPS breakpoint" argument is retarded for a long list of reasons. First of which being that DPS varies. No combination of classes and/or pets will ever do exactly 200 dps to every mob. You keep trying to precisely math out everything and act like everything is going to be exactly the way you math it even if you change conditions or variables. This tells me you have absolutely zero experience in programming or any kind of software development. Unexpected things happen all the time. This is the entire point of things like unit tests. No human being can 100% accurately predict the outcome of such a complex system with all the different variables and conditions present. Despite what you may think the code running behind the scenes in a game like everquest is fairly complex. Not to mention introducing the unpredictability of human behavior into the equation.

All of that set aside. Even if you were 100% correct about your assessment. You'd still be wrong in assuming that just because you don't get an extra named/PH spawn in a short play session that additional DPS is completely worthless. This is just straight up factually incorrect. It's nothing but your opinion that you've been spewing as fact for dozens of pages. There are tons of people that play this game for super long periods of time per session. I used to regularly play 12-16 hour days at one point in my life. Back when I was younger and unemployed. If I'm not mistaken your own calculation said an extra named cycle would be gained at 11 hours. There are many people that play that long or longer per day. Even if you DON'T get an extra named/PH cycle you can still kill additional mobs per hour. Many many camps (including fungi king that we use as an example often here) has A LOT of mobs within pulling range. I don't know about you but I prefer to play the game and not kill 3 spawns and go AFK for 25 minutes. More trash kills = objectively better. Even if its only a minimal benefit.

Ultimately I think the main crux of the disagreement is that you place an insanely high value on the utility and "safety" aspect that you feel a shaman brings. This isn't backed by data or math. This is simply your preference/opinion being asserted as fact. So far everyone here except you agrees (If you quote fucking argumentum ad populum one more time I swear to fuck) that a group with a cleric and 2 enchanters has MORE than sufficient utility and safety. This is why everyone keeps saying "redundant" in reference to shaman. They don't really bring anything the group doesn't already have. I leveled a enc/enc duo with no healer and we legitimately died like less than 5 times the entire leveling process. It's not an exaggeration to say a cleric is the only safety net this group needs. You don't need to be gods gift to everquest or a pro player or any of that nonsense. 2 reasonably well played enchanters and 1 halfway decent cleric is an unstoppable killing machine. You're kind of an insane person if you really think that group is like "Oh man I really wish we had a shaman so we don't wipe". That's fucking ridiculous man. I know how much you love your class but get fucking real.

Summary: Enc/Enc/Clr doesn't NEED anything. The only real benefit to be gained is more DPS or perhaps some utility the group doesn't already have. Shaman DPS is pretty mediocre and almost all of their utility the group already has. Thus they would not be anyone (except DSM's) first choice as the 4th filler for this group.

If you don't get more kills per hour via DPS, then it is redundant. I find it strange you keep saying that Shaman utility is redundant with a negative context, but somehow when DPS is redundant it isn't a bad thing.

This is the problem. It is odd to keep claiming that Shaman utility is redundant, and therefore worthless, but the equally redundant DPS (which isn't getting you more kills per session) is not worthless.

That is where we disagree. No group I have ever been a part of was clamoring to have a 21 minute AFK instead of a 20 minute AFK in between cycles. The 1 minute you save per cycle by adding the extra DPS of the Mage is literally meaningless.

The Shaman offers a broader toolkit which can be used at any time. Therefore it is more useful than the 1 minute saved on AFK time nobody is going to notice.

I don't know why this bothers you. It is backed up by the basic math. Of course DPS varies on a per encounter basis. But in a game of averages like Everquest, it evens out in the end more or less. Unless you get insanely unlucky and parse low for 10 hours straight (which I have never seen), your average DPS will look similar in the end.