Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Danth]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

Just because you prefer to play one way, doesn't mean that is the best way[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And for people who are clamoring that "DPS is better than everything", I am showing them that they can get the same DPS just fine. Don't blame me for simply looking at the facts lol. I know how Seb mobs work, you could do what I suggested just fine and get the Same DPS. It's really not theory craft. Preference is irrelevant. Remember that 2 Charmed pets can only attack up to 2 mobs at a time. So you can have 4-6 mobs in camp and DoT up the mobs that aren't being killed.

DPS is the key argument for bringing a Mage, and they can't even hit higher numbers than a Shaman. Their lack of utility means they are just sub-par compared to a Shaman in Seb. That isn't to say you can't play with a Mage. If you want to that's great! Most people aren't Min/Maxing their groups to begin with, regardless of what other people try to claim hehe. Remember this is level 60 we are talking about.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's really not theory craft..

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

I agree with most of this. I am simply saying just because "groups operate in x manner" doesn't mean it is the only optimal way to play. The argument isn't "Mage is better because of preference", people are arguing "Mages objectively do a ton of damage, therefore bring them instead of another class."

But at least for the Seb example, the numbers aren't adding up to make Mages special at all. At best they can DPS at the same level as a Shaman, but I am willing to bet the 157 DPS Troxx was talking about involved nuking, which isn't sustainable. The med times are going to hurt your overall DPS/kills per hour. But we will need to see the actual logs to confirm this. Having Torpor/Epic means a Shaman can sustain the DPS longer, without needing a break.

[PatChapp]

If your in a group with multiple charm pets, dps is not an issue. Enc/enc/cler/cler please. Less dying for everyone involved.

[Keebz]

Idk, it sounds right. I think 4 shaman is clearly the best. DSM has me convinced. Why kill 1 mob at a time with superior DPS when you can root rot 16-20 simultaneously? Not to mention the 4 wolf pets putting out 44 dps and the 4 JBBs hit nearly 20dps. Seriously why play any other class? Can a mage Torpor a wolf pet? I don't think so.

[PlsNoBan]

This dudes boner for the shaman class has completely drained his brain of blood and is no longer capable of rational thought

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This dudes boner for the shaman class has completely drained his brain of blood and is no longer capable of rational thought

Yup, all of these level 60 mages have NO bias whatsoever[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. Math isn't biased[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yet again you can't counter my points with logic and evidence, so name calling is all you have. Its sad.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We were talking about Sebilis silly, where most mobs dont summon.

Keeping to Sebilis: Most don't summon but that's kind of moot because this group of 60's isn't hanging out at disco or chef unless they're goofing off anyway. I've never seen anyone try to play that way at myconids or juggernauts, resist rates are a hassle, lot of it summons, and the mushroom men have too many healers and gaters. In crypt if you're taking some of the non-valuable crap out of the picture because those are your charm pets you're still going to be left with mainly singles, especially after the initial break. You could turn emperor's room into a battle royale but that's make-work for the shaman because usually they're going to lull it out solo. Really in crypt, odds are the 4th player's logging on a rogue alt to make the doors less of a hassle. So you're left with goofing off at disco or NG on easy nights when folks don't feel like using their brains...valid enough but probably outside the main scope here.

Maybe someplace like Charasis would've been a better location for that sort of thing?

Danth

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yup, all of these level 60 mages have NO bias whatsoever[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. Math isn't biased[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yet again you can't counter my points with logic and evidence, so name calling is all you have. Its sad.

I don't have bias. I have every class, and I can guarantee I've done more builds than you. I've learned to appreciate them all in their own way. I know reality whereas you seem to have a distorted view of it to support your favorite class claims.

You've shown how much dps a shaman can do when there are 4-5 mobs in camp and they are allowed to just sit there and hit full epic duration time after time. This is an effective way for a shaman to solo, but you don't even see this happening when shaman's duo. You're usually just focusing down 1 mob at a time and being careful more times than not at what you bring in, especially with super high level content. The hole for instance could easily be a wipe if you get 2-3 nasty golems.

The same goes for this group of 4 situation. There's no point to attempt to bring that many mobs in at once, and let them sit there over and over again so the shaman can do more dps, hehe. It's an unnecessary risk especially when fighting mobs that lvl 60s actually care about, lol. Even seb mobs can get nasty once you get past 3 of them. As myself & Danth already pointed out, most situations you will just eventually run out of mobs too.

Shaman's are a more superior overall class than a mage, but what mages do well, they do really well. This particular scenario is one that they are built for when you have an enchanter/cleric that can cover what a shaman brings to the table.

So sorry, everyone will be enjoying the superior mage dps while your shaman will be sitting there on the baseball field not getting picked for either team of pure casters.