Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Zuranthium]

Thanks for that reply, Hithrohir. Good to see some other intelligent, knowledgeable discussion.

The only thing I disagree with you on is Clerics not being required, because my statement was specifically about Clerics being required for high level content. Sure, you can take on most of Karnor's without having a Cleric, but that's a far cry from the hardest areas in Kunark and so many of the areas in Velious. Moreover, without CHeal, it takes far more TIME to tackle content. In many cases, you do in fact become restricted from the content (or it becomes unfun) because of that time/downtime restriction. This is problem. You shouldn't log onto Everquest and hear this in Guild Chat: "Hey, who wants to group?" 30 minutes later..."Hey, anyone find a Cleric yet?" 30 minutes later..."Well, I guess we aren't playing today."

Clerics should be a necessity for killing specific MOBs, not a necessity for simply playing the game at a suitable pace.

Originally Posted by mala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

thats not how it works on here, the fire pet innately has his DS no matter what. Not trying to sound rude but you should prolly do a lil more research into how things are working on this server before commenting on class balance and such.

I realize that's how it works on here. That's not the way it was in Classic, though. The Fire Pet had to actually cast the damage shield on itself and it often wouldn't cast it immediately after being summoned (and it wouldn't cast it while in combat). Thus, chain summoning Fire Pets wasn't a good soloing method in Classic, although if you had 2 Magicians grouped together it worked because that provided the time to make sure the pet had DS up before sending it in. I'm not sure when they changed the Fire pet in live to automatically be summoned with the damage shield.

Given that this server's goal is supposedly to be 100% (99.9%?) Classic, I don't see any relevance in the latter part of your statement. Classic is the bar and thus I am talking about the way things were in Classic and what should be modified from how it was in Classic, such that the game will be better. As I discussed in another thread, this server will eventually go past the Classic timeline. If you just freeze the game at the end of Velious era, then the server will dwindle.

Players are coming to this server because they want the Classic Everquest experience. They will not mind if details are tweaked here and there to improve the game. They will welcome it, actually. The "Classic Everquest experience" is not in the exact numbers of how the game was coded. Moreover, to continue the server once the timeline runs out, there will have to be new content or shifting content anyway. Which is why I argue that changes for the better should be made sooner rather than later. This server will never be 100% Classic EQ, ever. Not possible. Given that such a thing is impossible, the server should strive to maintain the classic EQ experience without forcing the exact coding of how every little thing was during the actual Classic timeline. Trying to recreate the exact coding does not recreate the classic EQ experience.

Originally Posted by etplante [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But dude, he's level 40 with 10k banked after only two weeks. This young jedi master is not just talking the talk, he's walking the walk.

Level 45 now, without any help at all (and actually spending time helping noobies in the zone), exactly one day after making that post. *shrug*

[Stormhowl]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you just freeze the game at the end of Velious era, then the server will dwindle.

Citation needed; appealing to the fear of the server shutting down isn't a wise choice nor is it a good argument for why a server designed to follow what the Classic EQ experience was, should deviate from that.

Players are coming to this server because they want the Classic Everquest experience. They will not mind if details are tweaked here and there to improve the game. They will welcome it, actually.

1) Please do not generalize your opinions across the population of players who come to this server.

2) You do not speak for anyone but yourself.

Who are you to say what people want and don't want?

Moreover, to continue the server once the timeline runs out, there will have to be new content or shifting content anyway.

Why? There's other servers on EQEmu if you want changes like that.

Which is why I argue that changes for the better should be made sooner rather than later.

Why do the changes even need to be made in the first place? Why does "sooner rather than later" matter when it conflicts with the goals of the project?

And your answer had best not be more doom and gloom about the end of the time-line, as that is just an appeal to fear fallacy, and I doubt any of us are interested in that.

This server will never be 100% Classic EQ, ever. Not possible. Given that such a thing is impossible, the server should strive to maintain the classic EQ experience without forcing the exact coding of how every little thing was during the actual Classic timeline. Trying to recreate the exact coding does not recreate the classic EQ experience.

Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy. While it can't be a perfect 100% creation down to the finest detail, that doesn't mean something needs to be changed to the timeline.

If you honestly feel otherwise, then back up your statements. At this point in the thread, I cannot see where you learned how to argue... was it 4chan? There's too many logical errors in your reasoning for this to be a serious discussion.

[Doors]

Don't bother arguing with this guy. He has his head so far up his own ass that anyone else's opinions are deemed wrong, regardless of any validity they have.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Appealing to the fear of the server shutting down isn't a wise choice nor is it a good argument for why a server designed to follow what the Classic EQ experience was, should deviate from that.

As I've said over and over, trying to photocopy something does NOT recreate the actual experience. If you try to recreate a film shot-for-shot and line-for-line, the copy will be FAR different than the original, even though you followed the exact framework perfectly. Nobody wants to see an attempted copy of a film, except perhaps to just to experiment for the sake o fit. What people DO want to see, though, are films that engage their emotions and their imagination in the same way that other films they loved did.

Trying to follow the exact Classic EQ timeline does not recreate the Classic EQ experience. To recreate the essence of what Classic EQ was, you instead need to create an environment where people are playing the game like it was in the early days and also how it was meant to be played. This means not only fixing problems the original designers knew about and weren't able to fix when Classic EQ was actually happening (or didn't have the understanding/perspective to fix at the time), but also a whole new slate of issues with regards to how people approach the game now in 2011.

Since the "classic timeline" will in fact run out and this server will NEVER exactly be Classic EQ, the server should thus keep the spirit of Classic EQ alive and make beneficial changes now rather than waiting to make changes after the "classic timeline" has run out and people want more content and/or are upset about very, very big problems that were in Classic EQ.

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who are you to say what people want and don't want?

Who is a choreographer to say what dancers/ice skaters should do and what they shouldn't?

Who is a game designer to say how to make a good game and how not to?

Who is a physics professor to say what the best theory is for a mechanics solution and what isn't?

Who is a marketing executive to say how to make more people buy your product and how not to?

Let's not diminish the knowledge people have in the World and the value of learning from history, thanks.

Originally Posted by Stormhowl [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nirvana/Perfect Solution fallacy. While it can't be a perfect 100% creation down to the finest detail, that doesn't mean something needs to be changed to the timeline.

It's hardly a fallacy. Things already HAVE been changed from the timeline. There are specifically things that will never be Classic on this server, not just because of time/logistic restrictions (which is a real problem - the developers can't do it all), but because the developers specifically don't want to change it to how it was in Classic.

Given that the developers are already specifically changing things from how they were in Classic to improve the game experience of this server, here and now in 2011, I am talking about how things from Classic EQ can be improved to make the game better as a whole for all of us to play.

[Pico]

aspergers.txt

[Hamahakki]

Citing specific evidence of how classes were balanced in early classic is going to be difficult, but for what it's worth most of what Zuranthium is saying is pretty much how I remember it and I played from launch day through Velious.

That said, this thread is pointless because nothing is going to change. It doesn't matter what a random player thinks druids or clerics or shamans should have been. This project already has a vision and it is unambiguous.

The argument that p1999 is about recreating the spirit of EQ1 rather than the details is bogus. With a few small exceptions, the leadership of this project have chosen to replicate original EQ exactly, even in the case of bugs which were later fixed on live.

If you really want things to be a certain way, go make your own server. Nilbog and Rogean did it. Coming to this project and expecting your changes to become reality because you declare yourself a "guru" is as useless as it is hilarious.

[Ostros]

Who is a choreographer to say what dancers/ice skaters should do and what they shouldn't?

Who is a game designer to say how to make a good game and how not to?

Who is a physics professor to say what the best theory is for a mechanics solution and what isn't?

Who is a marketing executive to say how to make more people buy your product and how not to?

Let's not diminish the knowledge people have in the World and the value of learning from history, thanks.

....what?

Are you suggesting that your supposed categorical knowledge of EQ is somehow thoroughly practiced and certified via years in the field and time spent at a university? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Given that the developers are already specifically changing things from how they were in Classic to improve the game experience of this server, here and now in 2011, I am talking about how things from Classic EQ can be improved to make the game better as a whole for all of us to play.

Right and we're trying to tell you that it's ultimately, and entirely useless. I'm sure everybody on this server (including myself) has a load of wonderful ideas as to how we could unfuck this server. Unfortunately for you our particular devs aren't interested in this. Maybe you'll luck out and when they finish with the patch archive after Velious they'll start un-sony-izing things to give themselves more work to do on the project, and then this thread could be come useful. Until then, no. And even then: NO, why would you start balancing classes, that's about 1/4 of what got me hating WoW was that ever constant stream of class-breaking changes.

Removing the unique functions and styles of classes in EQ would ruin it entirely whether it's here or on live. Now please stop trying to start a circlejerk by coming on here and stroking your engorged ego in front of everyone. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[mimixownzall]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Considering the number of people who can't comprehend the concepts of game theory and game balance and don't want to engage in the intellectual discourse required to participate in the conversation...yes, that might be an accurate description of the responses herein.

Sorry, but I don't know how you would call anything you are doing 'intelligent.' Troll? Yes. Intelligent? No. You are crying about class balance. This is a classic server that tries to stick to original EQ back in 1999-2001 as best it can. These 'imbalances' you are complaining about will not change. So, you are, in essense, WHINING.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you really want things to be a certain way, go make your own server.

Thanks for your reply and vote of confidence.

This statement has been said ad nauseam. I do not have the time nor the coding ability to make my own Classic EQ server. I'm using the knowledge and pragmatic energy I have to try and educate a broader audience about game theory in general, especially how it relates to Classic EQ.

Originally Posted by mimixownzall [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a classic server that tries to stick to original EQ back in 1999-2001 as best it can. These 'imbalances' you are complaining about will not change. So, you are, in essense, WHINING.

I'm not whining, it's called discussion. Regardless of whether it will change or not, this is a forum for Classic Everquest, and easily the most active one that I know of. Sharing knowledge about how the game was and further sharing ideas about what can improved is relevant to the forum. If the developers of this server have no use for the ideas being present, then perhaps another developer will.

Originally Posted by Ostros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Removing the unique functions and styles of classes in EQ would ruin it entirely.

Yes...and that's not what I'm trying to do, *AT ALL*, so stop trying to purport this completely misguided notion and start actually reading and processing what I've written.

In fact, ideally, the classes should be even MORE unique than they already are. The melee combat system in EQ is quite lackluster and, even aside from that, the Hybrids weren't designed very well to actually have unique roles (or at least that's not how it worked out) and there could be further separation of the casting classes.

[Ostros]

Yes...and that's not what I'm trying to do, *AT ALL*

Right, except:

*Druids could heal significantly better than Shaman...even with heals that were closer to Clerics, the Druid would still not actually be as efficient of a "defensive" character as the Shaman, considering how the latter class gets the best slow in the game and self energy regen to power their heals/debuffs.

*Shaman did not get pets...this is extra free damage that is a slap in the face to the INT casters, as it makes the Shaman capable of doing more damage over time than those classes. Very imbalanced how a powerful defensive class is additionally capable of producing more damage over time than a class entirely dedicated to offense!

And:

Being able to summon mod rods or perform the occasional Call of the Hero hardly makes a class equally viable.

Don't forget this gem:

Wizards had a more specific purpose of at least being able to provide burst damage against very difficult opponents but such a thing was only needed very occasionally. Their DPS over time was embarrassingly weak in comparison to a melee...about 1/5th of what a melee could do.

Annnnd:

Are Clerics absolutely REQUIRED for groups at the later levels? It used to be that you HAD to have a Cleric or else you literally couldn't group.

=/

In each of these examples you discuss changes that would either under/overpower or remove an intended dominant role for a class, and talking about Wizards doing less than a 1/5th of the damage melee is doing? That's a remark bordering on absurd, and demands parsed logs.

And taking pets away from Shamans? Your arguments make absolutely no sense, especially where you talk about the pet being a slap in the face to INT casters. I'll tell you right now: Necros and especially Mages don't give a shit. Yay more pet DPS. I'm so sure that all the necromancers and mages are offended that a puppy is in the group/raid doing nice extra dps. Wizards are nuking things to death, and again, really couldn't care less. Enchanters have pets, but have a primary role of crowd control instead of actually dpsing. Nobody is gonna care how much dps the Enchanter is doing when he's saving their asses from an over-pull.

And finally:

In fact, ideally, the classes should be even MORE unique than they already are. The melee combat system in EQ is quite lackluster and, even aside from that, the Hybrids weren't designed very well to actually have unique roles (or at least that's not how it worked out) and there could be further separation of the casting classes.

I'm sure they'll get right on overhauling one of the core mechanics of a game that is literally over a decade old.