Let's talk CLASS BALANCE

[Ennoia]

Originally Posted by randal.flagg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its a discussion, get over it. I don't know why people flame so much... its so pointless and just distracts from a genuinely interesting conversation.

It's so pointless to discuss class balance because that's how the game is/was/always has been.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Ennoia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's so pointless to discuss class balance because that's how the game is/was/always has been.

Several people keep making that statement, but that statement is a blatant lie. There is no such thing as one set "that's how the game is/was/always has been."

Again, I will say: Class balance, as well as a multitude of other game features, changed many times during the Classic era. This very server has constantly made specific decisions as to how it wants things to be. This very server is not an exact replica of Everquest at ANY point in its history. This server is trying to replicate an original EQ experience in the most fair and effective ways possible. When we first played EQ, a lot of the flaws didn't really matter because the game itself was so enrapturing. Now that we no longer have the "ignorance is bliss" perception towards the game, steps should be taken to make it the best game it can possibly be with regards to recapturing the ESSENCE of what original EQ was.

Originally Posted by odizzido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyways I think it is pretty fair. If you want to do the most DPS you pay the price of being useless outside of a group.

The game is inherently ABOUT being in groups, though. You can't even solo very well at the higher levels. How is it fair that melee classes do 3x the damage, or more, of caster classes whose primary roles are to deal damage? Also, Shadowknights can solo quite well, so that ruins the argument you've put forth (note - I am not attacking you, just trying to set forth the facts here).

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I will say: Class balance, as well as a multitude of other game features, changed many times during the Classic era. This very server has constantly made specific decisions as to how it wants things to be. This very server is not an exact replica of Everquest at ANY point in its history. This server is trying to replicate an original EQ experience in the most fair and effective ways possible. When we first played EQ, a lot of the flaws didn't really matter because the game itself was so enrapturing. Now that we no longer have the "ignorance is bliss" perception towards the game, steps should be taken to make it the best game it can possibly be with regards to recapturing the ESSENCE of what original EQ was.

Not true!

This server is ALL about replicating EQ as closely as possible through Velious, down to each nerf and patch.

Now... its not a 100% replica, perfect is not possible, there are certain limitations due to the eqemu coding. We're not forced to stare at our spell book while meding, but otherwise the dev team follows the EverQuest's patch history as close as possible.

Also I will echo what others have said say that the unbalanced nature of the classes makes this game interesting, it adds depth to the gameplay and makes specialized classes fun to play etc.

Can it be frustrating at times to be the Ranger who gets made fun of constantly in /ooc and is left out of groups? Sure but when you get to level 60 it makes the accomplishment that much more rewarding.

On live I played a cleric and could easily get in a group within minutes of logging on. But I was always jealous of the utility of the druids. I wanted DoTs, i wanted SoW, i wanted INVIS, i wanted to teleport, track and the ability to solo!!

So when p1999 came around I rolled a Druid. Now I can't complain when I have trouble finding groups when at the same time I can solo stuff naked.

BTW I mained healed a Karnors group for hours today at level 53. Once we get Superior Heal we are at least a viable backup option for MH if there is no cleric around.

[randal.flagg]

Wizards get a HUGE boost in kunark. I rolled a wizard for lures / bane nukes. Pretty incomparable raw DPS, even if it is just burst. Additionally, the mana regen issue is conquered with the wizard epic / manastone or manarobe.

[hrafn]

Originally Posted by randal.flagg [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wizards get a HUGE boost in kunark. I rolled a wizard for lures / bane nukes. Pretty incomparable raw DPS, even if it is just burst. Additionally, the mana regen issue is conquered with the wizard epic / manastone or manarobe.

yes, like everyone that plays a spell caster is gonna get their epic AND a manastone/robe. not everyone has been here since the server opened.

[Swish]

1. In my experience up to LoY/LDoN as a shaman, I found that I COULD heal quite effectively and the downtime wasn't too significant with canni and a mount as long as people (with exception of the tank) weren't wanting a full suit of buffs.

As a shaman solo healer at low levels you cannot replace a cleric as a main healer, you can substitute in one's absence but a well twinked tank is going to be a hard time to keep at full health without oom'ing on inefficient heals.

Clerics should be and are the best healers in the game. Druids obviously enjoy the kiting BS that made me never want to play one, and shammies get to kite if they really want to or root-rot. Clerics don't quite have the luxury, and are much more group dependent - which should and does give them the edge over other healers.

If I could pick a healer class to heal my tank, it would have to be a cleric hands down.

a) For the fact that they have the better/more mana efficient heals.
b) Too many uninterested druids/shamans out there who don't WANT to heal or aren't used to doing it, and do a half baked job of it.

Power to the clerics [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Akim]

I liked playing my sk, war, paladin, and now enjoy my ranger. I didn't like my rogue much. Warrior was bland back then scraping for yaks when I played it. Monk feels too easy almost.

"However, I eventually decided that it wasn't the role (buffing/debuffing/healing) I wanted to play in the game. "
Been there.

[Doors]

The only thing I'll agree with is that clerics being the only viable healer for kunark 50+ groups, raids etc is kind of lame. It limits your options significantly and makes forming groups harder.

I think if any modification was going to be made, it should be made to shaman and druid heals so anyone who wanted to play something other than a cleric/warrior/enchanter on p99 didn't get shit on just because they weren't as useful.

[mwatt]

Wow. A lot of work to come up with suggestions that simply will not be implemented. This server is intended to provide the classic EQ experience, with both its beauty and its warts.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wow. A lot of work to come up with suggestions that simply will not be implemented. This server is intended to provide the classic EQ experience, with both its beauty and its warts.

The "classic EQ experience" is something that was ever-changing. Most everyone agrees that everything pre-Luclin is considered "classic EQ". But at what point within that spectrum should THIS game, p1999, be defined? It is a very important question. Rogues were complete shit at one point in classic. Paladins, Shadowknights, and Rangers were also shit for a very long time after Kunark came out and didn't get buffed until well after Velious.

I'm not sure exactly what balances are in place in the game right now, but I'm assuming that Rogues do in fact have "Evade" and the the Hybrid classes have the post-buff stats from the Velious era at levels 50+.

Originally Posted by Doors [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only thing I'll agree with is that clerics being the only viable healer for kunark 50+ groups, raids etc is kind of lame. It limits your options significantly and makes forming groups harder.

I think if any modification was going to be made, it should be made to shaman and druid heals so anyone who wanted to play something other than a cleric/warrior/enchanter on p99 didn't get shit on just because they weren't as useful.

That's more than the "only thing you agree with" if you also feel that every class shouldn't be shit on when it comes to finding groups. After Kunark came out, the classes that were viable for groups, in addition to the Holy Trinity you just mentioned, were Shaman, Bards, Monks, and (at Level 55, with dual backstab) Rogues. Some time after Velious came out, Shadowknights, Paladins, and Rangers also got buffed and became viable at that point.

But that still meant Magicians, Necromancers, Wizards (for exp groups), and especially Druids were not desired very much.

A friend of mine played Everquest with both of this parents - they played 6 characters altogether and were able to do much of the content in the game without ever participating with a guild. Their setup was Warrior, Monk, Cleric, Shaman, Enchanter, and Wizard (only because they needed a teleport character and Wizards were at least better than Druids). They would routinely laugh at Guilds who would wipe against content that those 6 could handle themselves. Specific classes very much had a monopoly on the game and it became very unfun to play the other classes.