Enchanter is broken and overpowered on P99

[DMN]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Previously I posted a thread about this which I believe was one of the most popular threads ever on this forum. However, Enchanter remains broken and overpowered. I'm now playing an Enchanter myself to better catalog issues.

Sounds like you were operating with forgone conclusions. Never the best way to approach any issue empirically.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The main crux of my argument is that other classes such as Necro and Mage have been nerfed in terms of known classic mechanics like fine steel daggers lowering delay while damage stayed the same. If overpowered mechanics like this need to be nerfed then Enchanter is deserving of the same adjustment regardless of if the issues making Enchanter overpowered are classic or not.

Enchanters were also "nerfed" by the FS dagger issue, and mages were massively buffed mage pets couldn't equip ANY weapons for a long time in classic but have since day one on green. So the "crux" of your argument seems pretty weak.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Enchanter summoned pets had low ability to tank. On P99 low level enchanter pets seem about as good as mage/necro pets. Level 4-12 enchanter pet should not be able to tank and solo an even con as they can here. They were extremely weak on taking damage and were almost a short "shield" spell which matches the chosen model used for it. Even up to level 30 I'm seeing my summoned pet solo blue mobs.

They still have low ability to tank. You need to have good enough slow to keep them alive. as time goes by. Pets were rarely used by enchanters back in the classic time period because the enchanter was considered a pure "grouping" and the pets would break mez's which was considered the main feature of the class(mainly crowd control/buffing) class. You went further to quote smone who said the enchanter pets are rogues. Careful here maybe you are gonna get enchanters buffed instead, eh? Also why you have to be careful trust what some random joe has to say.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. Tashan is resistable. More evidence exists in the previous thread I posted but it seems to have been deleted so I can't reference the other thread's evidence.

I'm the one that brought up tash being resistible during early classic time period. it ws changed a couple months after launch, around the same time they got clarity added to their spell list. Prior to that its resist rate was similar to root spells. The quote from 2001 was obviously someone that didnt know about the level capped resist or cast on a magic resist mob. it was changed Waaaaaaay before 2001.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Mesmerized mobs should not retain their low health if aggro list is cleared.

No evidence to support

These is a very good reason you have no evidence to support. Can you guess what it is?

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. Mesmerize did not mem wipe mobs so often. On P99 I'm mem wiping mobs something like 50% of the time it seems. Where did this rate rate of memory blur from mez come from?

i think the the memory wipe aspect of classic EQ was indeed somewhat different but unfortunately I don't remember the exact details. What I recall was that at low levels memblur worked extremely well and as levels increased it slowly but progressively became a bit more difficult to land the blur.

I do know that it was nowhere near 1% though.I remember in sebilis back then a typical pull would go something like me dazzling the adds, tash slow the main target, then move to the next one debuff one with tash and slow, then hit it twice with memory wipe and you'd wipe the hate about 9 out of 10 times. The enchanter would then tell the group which mob was going to be next(the debuff/wiped one), while the enchanter then moved to debuffing/wiping the next mob and potentially rmezzinging mobs if/when needed.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Channeling is still way too successful at lower levels. Starting at level 1 on P99 you can regularly cast through melee without interruption. This was a MAJOR part of making casters weaker early game that is missing from P99 and impacts Enchanter much more than other classes by allowing them to easily charm with 2-3 mobs hitting them which was often a death sentence on live.

Considering how fast enchanter stuns cast, if anything a generous channeling check helps any other class more, since enchanters already have the tool to solve that problem available. You really seem to lack basic understanding of enchantress/the game general which makes me suspicious of any of your other claims.

[Zipity]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Previously I posted a thread about this which I believe was one of the most popular threads ever on this forum.

Troll feeding the enchanters for attention, strong play.

[Baler]

I feel like much of the "overpowered" feeling enchanters put off is due to game mechanics and knowledge being far more understood and available than in 1999-2001.

Enchanters is pretty squishy in my opinion. And if we're talking velious end game gear, every class can shine.

[cd288]

“Hey so remember that other thread I posted complaining about classic things? Well nobody did anything when I cried and demanded it so I’m gonna try it again by making another thread”

[cubiczar]

This is one of the most tired subjects on this forum. If you have classic evidence for how things were in 1999 then put them in the bugs forum. That includes things that are nerfs to other classes like the fs dagger issue, or nerfs to enchanters like Tash being resistable early on, or channeling being too good (which like someone else mentioned makes other classes better as well). But whatever it is bring your evidence (not your feels) and put them in the bug forums so maybe something will get changed rather than just starting yet another thread here.

None of the classes are balanced with each other, this isn't WoW so if you want class balance you are in the wrong place.

[Castle2.0]

You think enchanters are OP levels 1-12?

I solo'd PoD on my 50 Enchanter. I agree, Enchanters are too OP levels 1-12.

*greedily rubs his hands together hoping levels 1-12 (when ENC is weakest) get harder and there is less competition at the top*

[Ivory]

You think their summoned pets is OP?.... oh boyy....just wait until you find out about their charm spells [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[azxten]

So I did some testing of my main hypothesis, that Enchanter is OP because channeling isn't working right.

On a level 1 Druid with 0 channeling skill I was interrupted every cast. No chance to channel. I then went and put 1 point into channeling.

Out of 30 channeling skill checks, 9 were interrupts, and 21 were successful.

Just some starting data and final channeling skill was 9. Level 1 channeling is ~70% successful? Seems a bit off, I'll do more testing.

Also something interesting I noticed which may just be random given the small data sample is that if I was fighting on a hill where pushback seemed to move me further as I slid down the hill my interrupt rate was higher than if I positioned myself to be pushed uphill. To avoid this I threw out a couple samples and only took data from flat terrain. Data gathered may need to be while positioned in a corner to minimize push interruption vs hit interrupt chance.

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/com1/playg.html

Lots of player comments that dexterity impacts chance to regain concentration. This link seems to support that as it was an official document.

"Dexterity:
This is your hand/eye coordination and is used in combat accuracy and spell casting capability. This is used in calculating your missile combat skills and aids in determining if you are interrupted when you are hit while casting a spell. "

[Seymoore]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I did some testing of my main hypothesis, that Enchanter is OP because channeling isn't working right.

On a level 1 Druid with 0 channeling skill I was interrupted every cast. No chance to channel. I then went and put 1 point into channeling.

Out of 30 channeling skill checks, 9 were interrupts, and 21 were successful.

Just some starting data and final channeling skill was 9. Level 1 channeling is ~70% successful? Seems a bit off, I'll do more testing.

No skill ups from 1 to 2 after 30 channeling checks? I think I solved the problem. Your dice are broken.

[azxten]

Looking at EQEmu code at least dex is not part of the calculation at first glance, not sure on ChannelChanceSpells potentially having a stat component but doesn't seem like it.

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob...one/spells.cpp

I find this interesting:

// modify the chance based on how many times they were hit
// but cap it so it's not that large a factor
if(attacked_count > 15) attacked_count = 15;

channelchance -= attacked_count * 2;

No hits past 15 during your spell cast will impact your interrupt chance.

// max 93% chance at 252 skill
channelchance = 30 + GetSkill(EQ::skills::SkillChanneling) / 400.0f * 100;

Magic numbers? This seems to suggest that you get 30% chance to channel at 1 skill which scales to 93% chance at 252 skill. If that is how P99 works I'm pretty sure there was no guaranteed 30% success rate simply for having the skill in live.

//avoid the square root...
distance_moved = d_x * d_x + d_y * d_y;
// if you moved 1 unit, that's 25% off your chance to regain.
// if you moved 2, you lose 100% off your chance
distancemod = distance_moved * 25;
channelchance -= distancemod;

I made a hotkey to get a loc before/after casting when taking a hit. Generally a hit seems to move your character about .01-.04 on the X/Y coordinate. If the distance calculation for interrupts is based on a full X/Y value movement I'm pretty sure this means it would be doing a calculation that has the least impact compared to skill level and number of times hit.

This means at 1 channeling skill you have a 30% chance to cast, if you're hit 1 time it removes 2% chance up to being hit 15 times which removes 30% chance. The distance moved calculation is mostly irrelevant for individual fights but can be significant if you're being hit 10+ times during your cast (10 hits *.06 aggregate movement per hit = .60*25 = 15% reduction).

EQEmu randoms a number up to 100 and if it's higher than your channel chance you fail to channel.

Biggest chance to channel is the built in 30%, then up to another 63% from skill. Biggest loss is being hit itself as each hit guarantees 2% loss to chance up to a max of 15 hits, and then movement which can be countered by walking into damage or using game geometry to minimize movement.

After looking at all of this I suspect that 30% built in bonus is what isn't classic and makes things too successful compared to classic at lower levels. You only get hit 1-2 times for a 2-4% chance reduction and very minimal push movement.

Why isn't dex accounted for?

Why did my testing on P99 show a ~70% success rate for channeling at level 1 when EQEmu code seems to support a 30% chance at such low skill?