sk starting points

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’ll post you a log when I get home lol.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh grats 60 btw dsm!

Thanks! Finally got my SK to 60. Feels good[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not sure why people keep saying "every hit is a near maximum on the turtle". I got 11 max hits out of 496 on the turtle. Why do people keep saying the same nonsense?

It’s context. I have thousands of melee parses on raid trash and bosses. The average hit on Bloodmaw or that stupid turtle is higher than Dain. IE: damage bonus is doing less of the heavy lifting. Avatar and other attack buffs are shifting the curve up less. Most Dain dps are doing 45-65dps. That stupid bear I was doing over 120 self hasted.

Gameparse shows my average hit to Bloodmaw with a Meljeldin is 144, max is 275. On Vindi in one parse it’s 118 with a max of 275. On Dain it’s a bit hard to find a good example since I’m often using the BFG for part of the fight but one example of 2h-only is average hit 76 and max hit of 216. That’s half the average hit of Bloodmaw hence the damage bonus and attack bonuses aren’t doing as much as on tougher raid targets. Mine were isolated anyways with capped Str and self buffs with self haste (91%) for every fight.

It’s not like the target is sitting but it’s not putting up much of a fight on something twice or more it’s level.

Please let me know if I can clarify. Not trying to be dismissive here. I just personally don’t have the time to parse on BM or Squirtle for a whole day to try and smooth out the curve. Even then, it’s not giving dmg bonus or attack power its rightful place. I bet a mage pet would parse high too…but that doesn’t matter when something is a super red con (or even a blue)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s context. I have thousands of melee parses on raid trash and bosses. The average hit on Bloodmaw or that stupid turtle is higher than Dain. IE: damage bonus is doing less of the heavy lifting. Avatar and other attack buffs are shifting the curve up less. Most Dain dps are doing 45-65dps. That stupid bear I was doing over 120 self hasted.

Gameparse shows my average hit to Bloodmaw with a Meljeldin is 144, max is 275. On Vindi in one parse it’s 118 with a max of 275. On Dain it’s a bit hard to find a good example since I’m often using the BFG for part of the fight but one example of 2h-only is average hit 76 and max hit of 216. That’s half the average hit of Bloodmaw hence the damage bonus and attack bonuses aren’t doing much. Mine were isolated anyways with capped Str and self buffs with self haste (91%) for every fight.

It’s not like the target is sitting but it’s not putting up much of a fight on something twice or more it’s level.

I completely agree with you that raid parses are different from non-raid parses. Nor have I ever said otherwise. I just don't think this is relevant.

If my DPS is 20% higher on the turtle, for example, the average DPS difference between 20 STR on a harder mob will simply be lower. This is because the DPS numbers of both parses (with and without 20 STR) will be lower. A lower average DPS number supports my position.

You would need to show that the DPS difference of 20 STR is actually going to get bigger on a harder mob. So far, nobody has actually shown this.

My turtle example is basically showing the best case scenario: the biggest DPS difference you are going to see.

[Snaggles]

I thought you were trying to objectively understand if attack power (ie strength) was worthwhile. Not explain how steamrolling green cons isn’t significantly faster with 20 more strength.

I’m not a brilliant mind at this stuff but have Gameparse and a 10 key. I can draw conclusions. Troxx was correct, most small SK’s will be undercapped unless you stack Maniacal Strength before Focus. Likely if geared properly for tanking but without BiS gear 30-40 points. That’s basically CoTP…

I cap with only Focus and Yaulp4 when I take off the Chokidai pauldrons That’s 40 str over the attached.
I wouldn’t say my gear is good but it’s attainable for a casual raider. I also stupidly put 20 str in at starting (90 unbuffed). It’s probably relative to the OP’s question.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Vojun

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I thought you were trying to objectively understand if attack power (ie strength) was worthwhile. Not explain how steamrolling green cons isn’t significantly faster with 20 more strength.

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m not a brilliant mind at this stuff but have Gameparse and a 10 key. I can draw conclusions. Troxx was correct, most small SK’s will be undercapped unless you stack Maniacal Strength before Focus. Likely if geared properly for tanking but without BiS gear 30-40 points. That’s basically CoTP…

You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

[Snaggles]

Attack is the only stat that gives you an advantage every time you swing a weapon.
Stamina is max hps
Intel is max mana.

If stamina reduced the rate you lost hps or intel increased your mana regen this would be different. I’m not saying it’s a zero sum game, unless your gear is extremely good most players will benefit from the more common stat picks. There is a case to make for a dex rogue (pre-avatar), charisma warrior, intel sk, charisma or wisdom paladin. These are just more extreme edge case examples. Every melee I’ve ever soloed to 60 (or even past mid 50’s was on a single npc so it’s not a mana limited/throttled situation like quadding.

So when a new player doesn’t define what their end goal is and asks for stat advice I tend to go with the info that favors 90%+ of the players. Unlike a bad WoW build you can’t really “break” a class here. You can’t respec but it’s just not like clinically bad trait picks.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.



You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything. Nor am I saying anybody's character has been ruined.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without an extra 20 STR. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without it. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

There is no need to consistently say "You'll do fine without STR". We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway. You'll do fine without 20 extra INT too. You'll do fine if you cap STR sooner too. Just means you got to enjoy more STR longer than the person who didn't start with STR.

STR is also not super easy to cap without shaman buffs. A lot of people don't want to have a handicap on their strength where they consistently have to rely on buffs to hit max str. Even your decently geared troll SK is not str capped self buffed. This number would be much lower for a DE/erudite.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no need to consistently say "You'll do fine without STR". We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway. You'll do fine without 20 extra INT too. You'll do fine if you cap STR sooner too.

Exactly. This has been my point. You will do fine regardless of where you put your starting stats. Therefore, put them into the stat that is the hardest to cap.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway.
...
A lot of people don't want to have a handicap on their strength

You cannot simultaneously say "players will have a handicap on their strength", while also saying "starting stats are largely irrelevant". You need to pick one.

I am not sure where the disagreement is here if you agree that "starting stats are largely irrelevant".