A reply to a thread in the Raid Discussion section.

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first thing we can do, is just beef up the hit points of all raid mobs.

Server not classic enough? CHANGE BASIC MECHANICS!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really wanted to write a reply to a given post in the aforementioned section that's off limits to everyone but a select few, thus I'll do it here.

This is the section of the post in question that I wish to reply to. It was posted by Hyjal.

To completely change the direction of how the raid scene plays out just because a few people have decided to hold hands and influence these discussions undermines the efforts that have been made to make this server a classic Everquest experience. Nilbog, Rogean and the many other developers have done a wonderful job here. The population keeps growing for a reason, and yes it has affected our raiding scene, but this is not World of Warcraft although I think some of you want it to be.

And I wanted to reply to this because this kind of thinking is in itself, poisonous.

There seems to be some misdirection as per the thinking of only a single group of like-minded individuals who feel that Everquest's raid experience--for one reason or another--was somehow designed to be handled similarly to the way that said scene is handled on this server.

Now stop right there. That kind of thinking is far too bold by any light. I was a guide on the Povar server, and I played on Veeshan, the Tribunal, Morell Thule, and Firiona Vie, and on all of those servers save for maybe Veeshan because I didn't play there long enough before switching, the raid scene was nothing like it has ever been on P1999.

This mentality that because zones weren't instanced, or because mobs didn't lock to their initial target, or any such lack of a self-policing system is in no way a signifier that the developers ever even considered any type of "who's the best gets it", or even, "who gets there first gets it". This kind of competitive, brutish thinking is STRICTLY a single viewpoint, and does NOT reflect the game, period, at all, in any way, ever.

The mere notion is ludicrous. To even think for a moment--to even IMPLY for a moment that this is the case is to further invite ideologies that the developers also never intended for any forms of player conduct within the guidelines of the game.

I can assure you, that is not the case.

For this mentality to hold even a single solitary truth, one MUST also begin to accept that there then should be NO RULES, and EVERYTHING should be acceptable. ALL forms of behavior.

Kill stealing, training, ninja looting--these are just some of the things that thus must have been perfectly permissible in all contexts, because the code never accounted for these actions.

Even in the same game but in a different context, the same rules to some people, no longer seem to hold the same value. To the majority of people, the idea of honoring a camp is just part of the unofficial rules. You just honor the camps of your fellow players because it's the proper thing to do. It's socially expected of you, and even for those few who have no such respect, they still know that it's socially expected. They're just self-centered.

But change that to raiding, and so many people seem so eager to flip a switch to turn the entire social ramifications of sharing completely off. They begin to quantify this shifting in moral application with sentiments such as hard work should equate to just reward, or competition is the lifeblood of the game.

Or even worse and extremely off base: That Everquest was intended to be all about competition.

For those of you who did not play EQ from its inauguration in 1999, let me enlighten you a tad: EQ originally was nearly impossible in its initial throws when it came to mustering up a cohesive singular guild who had the manpower, class power, and ability to raid at all. Almost every single server I played on had MAYBE two guilds who could even clear the planes. On Morell Thule for example, NO guild could clear all of Sky, and it took weeks of failed Trak attempts before he was finally defeated.

It was intended that raid content would be inaccessible for a myriad of reasons, but not wholly on the basis that any one or even two guilds would have the power to defeat everything SO thoroughly that nobody else even had a chance.

No, EQ was never intended to be about throwing the cards out the window so that only the "victors" go the spoils--at least not in that regard. The world was kept free and open, free and open to allow the players the opportunity to make their own choices, just as we're given here in the US and in many democratic nations across the world.

Firearms are not illegal in this nation mind, but using them in many instances very much is, and this I would argue, is very much a good similarity.

We have the POTENTIAL to train. We CAN, as per the game's mechanics, kill steal and ninja loot, and on every server with almost no exception, developers and game masters have set up rulesets to ensure that players do not abuse these freedoms, BUT THEY DO EXIST!

I could go into detail about the nature of the magic circle concept and some such other game and virtual world concepts, but I've already said quite enough. I'd recommend looking up Richard Bartle if you're interested in some good concepts behind online world design and game theory.

In summery: This mentality that EQ is all about competition is player-made. If you want to make declaration that YOU want competition, do so with all my respect, but do not begin to assume that because you CAN compete, that EQ was always intended for strict competition for content.

It wasn't, and as a guide on live, I can tell you first-hand examples of when I or a GM had to step in and even FORCE people to share, even if it didn't directly violate a rule.

You PLAY NICE. Period. You play nice so that everyone can have fun. If your idea of fun is a form of competition that misplaces 80% of the population, then you're fun is jeopardizing too much of the majority, and unfortunately, I would always lean in the opposite direction, regardless of my personal feelings.

Just a note as well for sake of argument: I never said I was for or against the idea of competition, nor am I disputing the concept as per how fun I may or may not find it. I'm simply disputing that while EQ can be competitive, it also cannot be completely competitive, because that WILL destroy the game. In the same nature that allowing open kill stealing, ninja looting, and training would also destroy the game.

There is a very good reason why we have rules. Some rules anyway.

That's right bitches, I quoted the whole thing.

But the OP is allowing two different things to get conflated.

"Logistically" speaking, 2000 or 2001 is not 2013. True. Cut-throat competition was therefore never the norm in classic eq. False. It was as cut-throat as it could be, given the limits of postulate 1.

We just live in an age where we have to artificially -- whether rotations or instances or what the fuck ever -- impede access to contested pixels, because, we have attained the singularity or something.

[Aeaolena]

I talked to my guilds old 'The Tribunal' guild leader last night and asked him about the raiding scene during Kunark.

He said he remembers The Tribunal did have rotations for some things back in Kunark. Sure on other mobs the top two guilds butted heads from time to time, but he had good, gentlemanly relations with all the guild leaders, even the top guild at the time.

Also, he said normally when a guild was at a mob, in force... it was an unstated rule that the other guild showing up would let the first guild buff up and try with their numbers. While they were fighting, the second guild would amass numbers. If the first guild wiped, the second guild would then try. In other words - No guilds got trampled or trained the way they do here on P1999.

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

[sabinrf24]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

[Aeaolena]

Originally Posted by sabinrf24 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

[Bones]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

[Aeaolena]

Originally Posted by Aeaolena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

Originally Posted by Bones [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

Then I just have to have faith that Rogean and Nilbog aren't deaf. :/

Especially since they are the ones who, as an analogy, again.. posted the "Do not shit on rings" signs.. only to have certain guilds lawyer-argue against the spirit of said rule - arguing that "Shit is defined as a solid substance, that is clearly diarrhea.."

Thus the whole reason why the Raid talks are taking place, to curb some of the nonsense.

[Uteunayr]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

[Elements]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Elements [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

If you wish to offer your own, do so. It is the job of the critic to offer alternative evidence. Put up alternative evidence or accept the conclusion drawn. Don't attack the person, attack the claim. It's a fallacy.

I will elaborate only one thing, in that the math was Splorf's, not Rogean's (and I wrote above "I believe...", in that I was not completely sure), but it was done on Rogean's plan before Nilbog's agreement to the repops.

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

Just clarifying what you responded to, it was "uncontested" in that AG did not interfere with their mob or mess with their pull. AG was there to engage and claim the mob, as it was theirs by the rotation that most of the "tier 2" guilds accepted. Upon wiping, AG engaged with the assistance of a BDA puller (teaching a puller of theirs), and then they killed the boss with less players and with no other guild's help on the fight itself.