ToV and pulling mobs.

[arsenalpow]

Killing targets on spawn points isn't feasible if there isn't a spot to hide from an AE, dragons must be pulled to safe locations for engagement. The issue with this is saying "no pulling across wings" turns the very limited safe spot locations in NToV into desync central. That's not really a fair solution either.

[Erati]

Who is crying wolf ? All I mentioned was had we not had what felt like a very malicious drop of mobs on us at the zone out mid engage with it in our camp ( fraps still in process of our review to see what happened ) - alot of the mess that followed would not have occurred, albeit the Divinity wipe sounds like it happened on the pull in which is absolutely wrong and our fault.

I am not playing victim or asking for sympathy for Taken fighting mobs at the zone out, we understand the mechanics of fighting there- its also useful when shit goes bad in general. If you guys remember early on - everyone absolutely didnt want to see mobs pulled to the ENTRANCE as it means no one can zone in safely. Well, sometimes exiting a dungeon is not very safe, thats Everquest. Mainly, I dont want to see or get to the point where we have 200 people poopsocking NTOV stairs and we have to have every angle of every corner being recorded for potential 'trains' to hope to get guilds to concede mobs.

[Anichek]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Who is crying wolf ? All I mentioned was had we not had what felt like a very malicious drop of mobs on us at the zone out mid engage with it in our camp ( fraps still in process of our review to see what happened ) - alot of the mess that followed would not have occurred, albeit the Divinity wipe sounds like it happened on the pull in which is absolutely wrong and our fault.

I am not playing victim or asking for sympathy for Taken fighting mobs at the zone out, we understand the mechanics of fighting there- its also useful when shit goes bad in general. If you guys remember early on - everyone absolutely didnt want to see mobs pulled to the ENTRANCE as it means no one can zone in safely. Well, sometimes exiting a dungeon is not very safe, thats Everquest. Mainly, I dont want to see 200 people poopsocking NTOV stairs.

Eratani, I am citing my example based upon an interaction that happened quite some time ago with Divinity. Perhaps I am not being clear enough.

While killing on spawn may not be the right answer, I agree that pulling them all over the landscape isn't either.

Unfortunately, nothing creative comes immediately to mind to address the simultaneously present issues of creating a massive poopsock OR a messy train.

This won't be easy to solve, to be honest. The last thing any of us wants is a random FTE lottery with 4 guilds, 200 people huddled on a spawn.

[Pan]

I think this discussion is about a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

The problem is, as I see it:

Q11: What about training away trash mobs?
A: This is acceptable, but if you choose to use this tactic, you must keep in mind that you are responsible for your trains/mobs. Meaning if your trainer dies, and the mobs go wipe another guild, that’s still training. When the time comes to purposely drop the train, make sure to communicate and coordinate with any other guilds in the zone.

There's a rule. It's in place. And it's crystal clear.

What's not happening is enforcement. The the staff is completely, 100pct absent in enforcing the rules that they set out.

Imagine that the real-life traffic enforcement officers quit or were so hamstrung that they couldn't do their jobs - and the roads were mayhem. Accidents everywhere. Unsafe speeds through residential zones. Nothing from the top down and tho most drivers might self-regulate, the roads and streets wouldn't be fit to travel on.

Alunova's proposed solution is just a crutch for lack of enforcement. Sure, speedbumps would slow people down here and there, but it would solve a small bit of a symptom of the problem. Not the problem itself.

I sent this to Sirken the other day and received no reply:

If the only enforcement of raid rules on p99 is going to be self-regulation, those who can self regulate are going to end up regulating themselves off the server...

as it stands, p99 rewards those who don't follow the raid rules and penalizes those who do - that's absurd and not sustainable

The point is, get rid of the rules, or enforce them

I'm not against player-made agreements - in fact, Omni has supported most initiatives. That's not what I'm objecting to here.

Currently, the raid environment rewards those who play loose with the rules and penalizes those who don't. The looser you play, the more shit you'll get to loot. And right now, there's clearly NO limit to what you can do as far as breaking the rules go. If you want pixels for your guild, ignore them completely. There seem to be no consequences currently (apart from those who impose consequences on themselves).

An agreement here would be a crutch. Not a bad thing, but a patch to a small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm almost to the point at which I'd encourage a Lord-of-the-Flies type shitshow for every target...just to see at what point those who are charged with enforcing the rules (that they wrote) would intervene and put a stop to the nonsense.

And yeah, I'm willing to eat a ban for posting this.

[Drakakade]

I agree with you, Cloki. No idea where CSR has been - probably, they have given up dealing with all the childishness on this server.

The rules are clear.

Anichek, Divinity was no where near the zone out, we were clearing down from Gozzrem after rezzing up after being trained by mobs from Telk, because when Telk was pulled by another guild, some of Telk's train added to our mob we were killing at Gozzrem thus wiping us.

10 minutes later, Divinity had no idea or warning that someone was about to pull a mob from NToV to WToV exit and wipe the zone. Look guys, that's obviously against the rules.

That's an obvious ban / concede next mob etc, etc. As Omni / Cloki pointed out, if there were any CSR, then that would be raid suspension right there.

Eratani, I see you throwing us a bone here, and I appreciate it. Look, you don't need to be at the raid to know that pulling Aary from NToV to WToV is not cool, and is going to result in a lot of trains / deaths. This is the second weekend in a row Divinity has been trained in this manner.

We are not talking 4 or 5 guilds competing at WToV zone out for Lendi here. Sure that's a mess, but it's understandable. You guys want to work something out for those scenarios? Sure, go ahead. Willing to listen to something reasonable.

But pulling NToV mobs to WToV when the zone if 200+, thus wiping the ding dang zone, 3+ guilds is against the existing rules. Come on now.

[Artaenc]

Cloki, you let me know if you see any Asgardians breaking raiding rules because it should be non-existent.

I get what you're saying though, the urges to go Amtrak mode is strong and getting stronger per incident just to get attention on this matter.

[arsenalpow]

So the solution is to be the closest guild socking?

[Pint]

Lets not sandbag a very basic fix bc ppl want additional rules to increase their odds at mobs. There are plenty of safe spots to kill dragons in ntov, flurry drakes take 5 hrs to respawn and regular trash takes ~72 mins? Jump in the wing and clear to the mob you want to fight if there are 5 guilds sitting on top of you, if they run a train over you and can't handle it thus wiping your raid then they have violated the raid rules and have to concede for 1hr/1attempt. The only way for 5 guilds to operate in the same zone is for them to spread out. All this elaborate train pulling is in no way a better or easier solution to the 5 guild problem. As it stands right now only 2 entities are consistently inside ntov working on mob attempts, the rest of you are half a zone away creating havoc.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So the solution is to be the closest guild socking?

BDA makes an absolutely insightful comment in so few words.

Chest has been superior at thinking about what the other person is going to do to get as close to whatever line we all imagine is drawn and not cross it. Many raiding guilds on P99 have done this in a competitive sphere for so long that instead of hitting a wall, we push the line.

That line is so far gone that if we stopped and looked back at our history of raiding, we would see how far gone we are.

Today the term "player made enforcement" is akin to "uniformly agreeing to break the rules." If no one is enforcing the rules, we will always find a way to break them as long as it benefits us. Why? Because the first guild to do it will benefit. Then we argue and everyone gets on board thinking this is the new raiding world. Then the line gets pushed by a new guild who benefits from being the only one and we argue and come to a new "player made agreement" again.

This system is not successful for a healthy server. It is successful for the advantageous and aggressive guilds who have long since abandoned the idea of self policing.


I humbly request to hearken back to the days when we all knew what raiding was like and GM's had involvement in our lives. This mountain top council needs an arbiter.



As Aaron said in scene II of Titus Andronicus: "Pray to the devils; the gods have given us over."

[Anichek]

Nemce, so Omni and Azure Guard are calling for more GM presence in the raid scene. Noted.

I can't speak for Chest, but the reality of the diatribes being posted is that we need to simplify conversation to exploration of solutions.

So other than additional staff time investment and/or expansion of staff, what else is realistic? Pint had some reasonable points.