Player Agreement: Rule Change at the DS Camp

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Ssouky [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Loramin

I don't really get why you should have the room cleaned to hold camp. I don't know any camp anywhere, where you're supposed to have everything clean...
Fungi king ? Need to clean everything ?
Any Seb camp ?
Kaesora camps ?
KC camps ?
Guk frenzy camp ?
Velk's camps ?
PoM camps ?
Sol A/B camps ?

This rule of "you need to be able to keep the camp clean" is DS specific. As it was stated earlier, this is classic EQ. You're here first, you keep killing stuff, you can solo some mobs of the camp, the named, it's your camp. I'd even argue you don't even have to be chain killing. Fungi king again. Who's going to ask someone to keep cleaning the tower and around ? Monks just flop every 20 mins, keep the corridor clean and single pull the PH.

If I'd like to just kill the pather and 1 or 2 mobs because that's all I can maintain down but I'm still able to single pull the named and solo it, why isn't it my camp ? That's exactly what everyone is doing at basically every camp.

I'm just asking because this is just inconsistent. Not that I actually care much, I don't need it and don't know anyone still "needing" this in 2024.

And to answer the OP : you're playing EQ. Camp this until you get the opportunity. You'll get it at some point. The longer you wait and push yourself, the greater the satisfaction.

Thanks for your input. To address your points:

The requirement to clear the entire room is indeed specific to the DS camp. The inconsistency you mentioned is part of the reason for advocating a rule change. Aligning the rules at DS with other camps would promote fairness and consistency.

I managed to secure the camp after 14 days of arriving as early as 5 am. This experience highlighted the unhealthy nature of the current system, which demands excessive time and effort.

"And to answer the OP": As mentioned, it’s currently impossible to get the camp because Castle maintains a timezone rotation allowing them to hold it 24/7. This monopolization prevents others from having any chance, making the situation untenable for most players.

Implementing a list/roll system would address these issues, ensuring that all players have a fair opportunity to camp DS without the need for unhealthy, prolonged camping sessions.

[fortior]

Originally Posted by Digz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting you assume that just because someone isn't in Kingdom, GG, Castle... that means they're guildless.

Solo artists can do their thing but this is a social game and it’s them who should adapt. We don’t need more specific rules for specific camps because enchanters want to solo things. Also, DS isn’t even a hard solo artist encounter, it’s just a 250k plat MQ and OP obviously wants it.

We also have precedence with small non raiding guilds not mattering: ragefire, a mob you can duo or kill with a small group, is a draftable mob which means non draft entities are blocked from killing it during the draft even if they could. Same goes for solo enchanters and hate minis during draft, etc.

Nobody should care about solo enchanters, already the most overpowered class, whining that they have to compete against teamwork.

[berbax]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Solo artists can do their thing but this is a social game and it’s them who should adapt. We don’t need more specific rules for specific camps because enchanters want to solo things. Also, DS isn’t even a hard solo artist encounter, it’s just a 250k plat MQ and OP obviously wants it.

We also have precedence with small non raiding guilds not mattering: ragefire, a mob you can duo or kill with a small group, is a draftable mob which means non draft entities are blocked from killing it during the draft even if they could. Same goes for solo enchanters and hate minis during draft, etc.

Nobody should care about solo enchanters, already the most overpowered class, whining that they have to compete against teamwork.

Your response contains several misconceptions that I’d like to address:

At the time of my recording, it was well-known among those present that my goal was the solo artist achievement, not obtaining the urn for monetary gain. My focus has always been on challenging myself, not on the item’s market value.

As others and I have stated, specific rules for certain camps already exist to address unique challenges and maintain fairness. The DS camp is no different and would benefit from similar regulation to prevent monopolization and ensure equitable access.

It's important to understand that P99 is locked in an early era of EQ where its stagnation exacerbates itemization problems because the game is no longer progressing with expansions and new content. Unlike the original game, where the introduction of new expansions shifted player focus and demand for items, P99 will see perpetual high demand for specific items. This static nature creates a highly competitive environment where a few players or groups can monopolize valuable camps indefinitely, leading to the issues we are discussing. Implementing rules like a list/roll system is a necessary adaptation to these unique circumstances, ensuring that all players have a fair chance at acquiring important items, especially ones that are good for every single class.

I also encourage you to revisit the previous points made in this discussion, as these issues have been elaborated on in great detail.

Lastly, playing an enchanter at the DS camp requires a higher skill level, and it’s not as simple as using beads, feign death, and flying kick like a highly geared monk. While it may seem that enchanters have it easier, the reality is that their success demands precise skill and strategy, making them one of the higher skill, high reward classes in the game.

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by Digz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've seen "first come first served" tossed out in here. In the case of 24 hour camps by mega-guilds, it's not that. It's an "Our guild was here first, we're gonna swap in/out players as we see fit and block others from getting this". There's literally 0% chance of getting these things if you're not part of the team that's blocking everyone else.

This is how anything works. If someone is camping something and they are maintaining that camp, then in most cases you cannot camp the same thing at that time.. it's currently their turn.

There is no goal of "block others from getting this", or at least there isn't among all groups (I can't speak for the other groups), but just because that is the outcome of someone camping an item doesn't mean their goal is to block others.

Yes, there is 0% chance to get the thing you want while another person is camping it. That isn't exclusive to this camp, so let's not pretend it is.

Originally Posted by Digz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those of you who played in 1999 would remember that camps weren't held by guilds, they were held by a 6 player group from whatever affiliation, one person leaves, next person on a manually maintained list joins, loot given in order. People in the group usually had a pencil and paper with them to track the list and ensure fairness.

I don't remember this at all. There was no structure like this back when I played on live. There was no queue and first-in-first-out style system. If you joined a group and something dropped you randomed for it. On my server you would /rand 200 300 since they had some conspiracy about numbers below that being biased. Lose the random? You don't get the item you want - tough. Someone new joins the group and beats you on the random - tough. The dice decide your fate.

Some people ran NBG (need before greed) style groups with different rules, but it definitely wasn't the norm.

But player-held structured and ordered lists? I never saw this on live servers, sorry. The closest to that was a camp holder saying you can have the camp next once they're done with it.

Originally Posted by Digz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does anyone want this server to devolve to the point of 3 or 4 guilds owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps? That's where it's headed, very very quickly.

Feels like some bias mixed with being overly dramatic. I can't speak for all groups, but at least one only formed because of the contested system that requires the player to clear all the golems before the camp respawns.

Most people will need help to do that, so to do that they will call their friends to help secure the contested camp. No one wants to be forced to clear for 8/12/16/24 hours, even if they have the ability to do so. Especially if RNG is involved (feign death, pacify, charm, etc).

Once people help they become invested in the camp and are more likely to stick around, even if it's just to help against the contesting players, or even to spite them. Suddenly you have posts about a "guild owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps"? Please. How about you try considering perspectives outside yourself.

Berbax, while a nice person, did almost nothing but say "clear pls" for hours on end. They are part of the toxicity and the problem. They are part of the reason anyone else holding the camp needs their friends/guilds to support them.

[sajbert]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it’s just a 250k plat MQ

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’d love to hear some suggestions, personally I think if the roll system works for other camps it should work fine for this one in the same quest chain

Just because it is the same quest chain does not mean it makes sense.

Angry Goblin is a head 100% of the time you turn in the report, as long as you kill Skargus

Shady Goblin is a report 100% of the time that you turn in

Drusella Sathir is not an urn 100% of the time that you kill her.

So you want people to go to a dangerous zone, that is easily trained, to random at a camp for the small chance to win some dice-based lottery.. and then the urn doesn't drop..

What then? You won the roll but get nothing? Have to roll again?

Or do you get a guaranteed urn for winning the roll and then have to kill her the next day until one drops? Are people going to show up on those next days? Who has to show up? Who's gonna validate that you actually loot an urn when you do? What if one drops and you say it didn't drop? Who's policing people from pocketing urns? Who's ensuring that the dice winner is the one even looting the urn? You expect the GMs to do this? Have you actually thought your idea to its conclusion? No, you have not.

I encourage and support new ideas on how to do things, but please think your ideas through and ensure they're actually better ideas. Cause all I see from this is you being upset at GG for pressuring your solo attempt. This feels like a post to spite GG.

Your data shows Castle is apparently holding the camp 24 hours a day (you add a ? at the end of each one by the way.. so you're not sure if they actually are?), but all I see you talking about is your bad experience with GG. So is this about GG or about Castle? Why have you not spoken ill about Castle too? Were they not mean to you? Or was it you being mean to them perhaps so you overlook that?

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Economic Impact: The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server...

The price will be determined by supply vs demand.. much like anything else. How much are people willing to pay based on how many they see available for sale.

The problem with people farming the urn for personal/internal use (and not for profit) is that those urns are not hitting the market (the supply). This is made worse because there is only one source of supply, on a 24 hour spawn timer, and also a low drop rate on top of that.

Technically the groups selling purely for profit were what was keeping the market prices as low as they were. Once you introduce a group of players not supplying the market you will see the prices begin to rise.

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.

This is a scare tactic used to manipulate people into agreeing with your point. You can say this about any item in the game, or even about the currency itself.

You have so much potential with your proposal, but you cheapened it with this point.

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Balancing Gameplay: DS camp difficulty is now trivial, making a list/line/roll system more reasonable and beneficial for a fair distribution of opportunities.

The camp is hardly trivial if it is taking entire groups of players to successfully hold it down. Sure, maybe BIS monks and other very highly geared players can make it seem trivial, but the average player is going to struggle.

Your view is somewhat biased being an enchanter, which is a class known to be extremely overpowered in the Velious era. What about anyone who isn't an enchanter or BIS monk?

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by Ssouky [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Loramin

I don't really get why you should have the room cleaned to hold camp. I don't know any camp anywhere, where you're supposed to have everything clean...

It was implemented to keep monks from just feigning in the hallway and calling the camp claimed 24/7.

They had to prove they could clear the camp, since without that anyone can feign a monk, even if they could never solo even the hallway pather, and call it claimed.

It had the unintended (or perhaps intended) effect of gating it to BIS/top geared monks, or groups that could afford to park accounts out at the spot to hold the camp when contested - which favors the high end raiding guilds who have the spare resources.

(It doesn't have to be monks by the way, it just so happens monks are the most efficient and feign makes you near perfectly safe while AFK. I'm sure a geared Necro/SK could also do it with some effort.)

If some rule doesn't make sense, just work backwards and think how the camp can be abused without that rule in place. That's likely why the rule exists.

[fortior]

I’m not going to waste time discussing instance #243 of a soloing enchanter looking to remove the advantage of having friends and working together in p99, no. Feel free to pick any of the harder, freely available solo challenges, and accept you are playing a multiplayer game under a self-imposed higher difficulty setting.

[Ripqozko]

we as a server reject your terrible opinion, move to resolved.