sk starting points - Page 9

Lune · #81 08-09-2023, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It makes me a little sad that you think I'm just attempting a silly gotcha. I'm trying to make a more fundamental point about your approach to rhetoric. I'm also aware that you find it somewhat frustrating how concise most of my replies are, so here is far more verbiage than this topic deserves.

It's possible I misinterpreted what you wrote. I see two ways to interpret "Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.": 1) emphasizing 'because'; this is accusing Troxx of an appeal to authority, "this is true because I say it is true". I considered and discounted this interpretation because I don't see Troxx making an appeal to authority. If this is what you meant, I'd like to see where you think he is doing that. 2) emphasizing "say"; what you say is insufficient to convince anyone. This is what I assume you meant, because the previous sentence, "Please start providing evidence for your claims.", is discussing the content of his argument. If you had preceded this sentence with something like "You're no credible authority on EQ", I would have been more inclined to the first interpretation.

But yes, I agree with Troxx. Not because of who he is or any authority he has, but because the content of what he says makes sense to me. I find his argument to be reasonable and convincing. I find your argument to be unconvincing. OP mentions "I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1"; if you want to convince me, show an Iksar SK magelo with 180-200 strength at that level of gear. Not raid BIS, but "all or most of group content gear". (I'm also curious what the OP would find convincing)

But I think the larger, more fundamental point I'd like to make regards what I would characterize as your preoccupation with "evidence". You're constantly asking for evidence. You frequently mention that your motivation is to put information out there and let the audience make their own decisions. As someone who is far less experienced or knowledgeable than any of y'all, I believe I'm qualified to speak as a representative for the cohort of people you claim to be addressing. Your constant emphasis and demand for "evidence" makes you less credible.

Not all forms of disputes or arguments require evidence. If there is a factual dispute, then obviously evidence is pertinent. But this dispute, like most that you seem to find yourself in, is not factual. It's about which of several mutually exclusive options is better. And better is subjective. As far as I can see, there's three positions one can hold:

Intelligence is best, because the other relevant stats will be capped easier late-game, and more mana is always better.
Stamina is best, because an SK's main job is tanking, and it's important to cap stamina/HP as quickly as possible.
Strength is best, even though it might eventually be overcapped, because late game stats won't make much difference, whereas it will make a measureable difference in quality of life while leveling and uncapped.

Evidence has very little to do with the strength of the argument when everyone is in rough consensus as to the mechanics affected by each of these attributes. It's the quality of the reasoning that matters.

And so this is my unsolicited feedback for you: I find how you structure your arguments to be weak. When you say "no one will be convinced by what you say" to someone I find credible, it makes you less credible. When you demand evidence in a subjective dispute, it makes you less credible.

If I'm the sort of person you're trying to convince, I hope this feedback is helpful. If not, please feel free to disregard it. Either way, I hope you're having a great day.

What a great post and I respect the kindness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is incorrect. Video games are built on rules and math. Factual claims such as which starting stat is best can be proven with evidence, and there is a best and worst option statistically speaking.

Dude do you not understand that you haven't provided any useful math? That is why people are accusing you of napkin math, because you are completely missing the full picture logically.

Yes, x INT will translate to x mana, which will translate to x HP with lifetaps. Now calculate the relative DPS burden of spending that time casting and not attacking, and then compare that to the amount of HP saved by the increased DPS, killing the mob more quickly and decreasing the damage it does to you by some amount. This is what I mean when I say you are drawing the wrong conclusions from your "facts". Most of us are extremely experienced with EQ and have a good deal of instinct when it comes to the game mechanics. I don't have to calculate the average weight of a fine steel weapon x the # of slots in an inventory of Shralok Packs to tell you any nerd is going to be encumbered because it has happened to me on characters.

(Although the answer is 6.55 average x 50 slots (to generously allot 16 slots for food and other items across 8, 8 slot shralok packs) = 327.5 - 25% WR = 245.6 weight, or an encumbered OGRE in raiding gear... not including worn equipment. I banged it out because I can't resist dunking on someone who doesn't reason in good faith. Even just 20 weapons in Shraloks would weigh 100, which coupled with worn gear is going to encumber most iksar. Hope there's a vendor nearby. Oh wait, you're iksar).

Just like I can tell you most knights never make it to 60, much less to full BiS gear (not just from personal experience, but from statistics someone gathered on the matter), because they are pretty weak classes for most applications at high levels and can be frustrating to play. And that's aside from the poor comparative utility of INT / max mana which I'm done repeating.

You don't have to provide actual numbers to know killing a mob faster is going to be more useful than having a slightly larger mana pool under 90% of circumstances when leveling. Want to prove that wisdom wrong? Good, provide actual math.

DeathsSilkyMist · #82 08-09-2023, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dude do you not understand that you haven't provided any useful math? That is why people are accusing you of napkin math, because you are completely missing the full picture logically.

Yes, x INT will translate to x mana, which will translate to x HP with lifetaps. Now calculate the relative burden of spending that time casting and not attacking, and then compare that to the amount of HP saved by the increased DPS, killing the mob more quickly and decreasing the damage it does to you by some amount. This is what I mean when I say you are drawing the wrong conclusions from your "facts". Most of us are extremely experienced with EQ and have a good deal of instinct when it comes to the game mechanics.

You do not seem to be very experienced in P99's game mechanics if you think there is a burden to casting a single life tap spell on a mob that is feared or running at low life. Max mana/hp is only used once, and will not be replenished until you meditate back to full hp and mana. You are only getting enough mana for 1-2 good life taps with the +20 INT, depending on your level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't have to calculate the average weight of a fine steel weapon x the # of slots in an inventory of Shralok Packs to tell you any nerd is going to be encumbered because it has happened to me on characters.

(Although the answer is 6.55 average x 50 slots (to generously allot 16 slots for food and other items across 8, 8 slot shralok packs) = 327.5 - 25% WR = 245.6 weight, or an encumbered OGRE in raiding gear... not including worn equipment. I banged it out because I can't resist dunking on someone who doesn't reason in good faith).

I have also lugged around plenty of FS weapons. You are not doing the math correctly, probably because you are too eager to "dunk" on people, instead of having a civil conversation. I think you missed my post where I mentioned other cheap WR bags.

Let's use your 6.5 stone average per FS weapon:

1. Evil Eye Bag is 70% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.3 = 15.6 + 3 (bag weight) = 18.6 stone
2. Light Burlap Sack is 65% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.35 = 18.2 + 3 (bag weight) = 21.2 stone
3. Large Soiled Bag (for Bandages, food, etc) weighs 1 stone total for the next 10 slots.
5. Shralok Pack is 25% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.75 = 39 + 0.4 (bag weight) = 39.4 stone x 5 = 197 stone.

Total = 237.8 stone. You could further reduce the weight with a few other cheap/easy to get bags like https://wiki.project1999.com/Box_of_Nil_Space and https://wiki.project1999.com/Wenglawks_Manly_Purse .

The nice thing about having high STR is you can carry a lot more weight over capacity before you slow down. The formula is based on how much weight you are over capacity compared to your STR. That is why it is easier to slow down on a character with low STR. A character with 60 STR is already 50% over their max carry capacity at 90/60 stone. To get to 50% over capacity with 180 STR, you would need to be carrying 270 stone. https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - This magelo I made has an Iksar SK with 182 STR with Siphon Strength. They have 66 stone worth of equipment, so they would go up to 303 stone. They wouldn't be able to carry 7 bags worth of FS, but they could carry 5-6. Personally I usually have 3+ bags of gear. I never have 7 fully open bags for vendor loot. SK's need bandages, food, water, jaspers, bone chips, and keys at minimum. This isn't even including resistance gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just like I can tell you most knights never make it to 60, much less to full BiS gear (not just from personal experience, but from statistics someone gathered on the matter), because they are pretty weak classes for most applications and can be frustrating to play. And that's aside from the poor comparative utility of INT / max mana which I'm done repeating.

You don't have to provide actual numbers to know killing a mob faster is going to be more useful than having a slightly larger mana pool under 90% of circumstances when leveling. Want to prove that wisdom wrong? Good, provide actual math.

You do need to provide actual numbers when making claims about numbers. If the extra STR doesn't provide enough DPS to kill mobs fast enough to matter, then your whole argument falls flat.

Jimjam · #83 08-09-2023, 01:51 AM

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

DeathsSilkyMist · #84 08-09-2023, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

Good catch. I'll adjust it. There are plenty of options.

EDIT: Fixed!

Lune · #85 08-09-2023, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Shralok Pack is 25% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.75 = 39 + 0.4 (bag weight) = 39.4 stone x 5 = 197 stone.

I did do the math correctly; I generously omitted the (.4) weight of the bag because it isn't necessary to prove the point.

Also your fucking SK is wearing all strength gear lol, way to prove my point (much of it iksar can't even wear)... that's the only way you're going to get an iksar SK to carry that much without encumbrance while leveling, especially if you allocate to INT.

DeathsSilkyMist · #86 08-09-2023, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did do the math correctly; I generously omitted the (.4) weight of the bag because it isn't necessary to prove the point.

Also your fucking SK is wearing all strength gear lol, way to prove my point (much of it iksar can't even wear)... that's the only way you're going to get an iksar SK to carry that much without encumbrance while leveling, especially if you allocate to INT.

To do the math correctly, you need to include the bag weight. You also missed the cheap bags that were not Shralok Packs. You also failed to mention that you can carry more weight over your limit when your limit is higher. It is also a bit unrealistic to assume that you will only have 2 bags full of necessary items. As I said, I usually end up with 3+ bags of items, especially on an SK. You need multiple reagents, bandages, keys, food, water, resistance gear, clickies, and weapon swaps.

I would love to see you post a Magelo if you think you have a better gear setup. In the Velious era, a lot of items have STR on them. I already fixed the issues with the non-Iksar gear https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK . Thank you JimJam for pointing it out! Remember that there are only 20 starting stat points, so the difference is 20 STR at best. You could also swap out Cloak of the Malestrom for something like https://wiki.project1999.com/Hooded_Black_Cloak if you were worried about weight. That would save you 17.5 stone.

Lune · #87 08-09-2023, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If the extra STR doesn't provide enough DPS to kill mobs fast enough to matter, then your whole argument falls flat.

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

Quote:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To do the math correctly, you need to include the bag weight.

That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would love to see you post a Magelo if you think you have a better gear setup. In the Velious era, a lot of items have STR on them. I already fixed the issues with the non-Iksar gear https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK . Thank you JimJam for pointing it out! Remember that there are only 20 starting stat points, so the difference is 20 STR at best. You could also swap out Cloak of the Malestrom for something like https://wiki.project1999.com/Hooded_Black_Cloak if you were worried about weight. That would save you 17.5 stone.

No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

DeathsSilkyMist · #88 08-09-2023, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage.

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.

Quote:

That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.

I am not sure why you are fixating on my bag weight comment while ignoring all of the other issues. Your point doesn't stand because you are ignoring other cheap weight reduction bags, you don't mention the increase in overweight carry capacity, and you are assuming 50 bags slots for FS weapons, when an SK will probably have less than 50 available.

Quote:

No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

You need to show what gear you think would replace the gear in my Magelo. Again, the difference in starting stats is 20 points. Thick Banded Belt is 15/20 missing STR, and belt slot isn't a high stat slot for low end gear. Good luck finding a cheap +15 STA or +15 INT item.

Lune · #89 08-09-2023, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.

1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared. The per point value of strength is similar in both cases.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

DeathsSilkyMist · #90 08-09-2023, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lune [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

1. This thread is about starting stats. So the question is: 20 STR, 20 STA, or 20 INT? Inflating the STR number to 50 is off topic.

2. Yes, the numbers need to be accurate. You cannot simply claim 50 STR is giving you X DPS you pulled out of thin air.

3. I do want to talk about facts. The random numbers you provided are not facts. You are making the claim. You need to provide the evidence.