Freedom From Atheism Foundation - Page 39

phacemeltar · #1 07-22-2014, 01:24 PM

necro'd

if u guys cant agree on elf-sim forums, how does anyone expect the world to come to any conclusion as a whole?

hello WWIII, nice to meet you

fadetree · #2 07-22-2014, 02:40 PM

Also not trying to be an asshole, but I simply don't care whether you understand it or not. Actually, I don't necessarily understand it either, and I don't care about that. I was clear in what I said.

Dragonsblood1987 · #3 07-22-2014, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also not trying to be an asshole, but I simply don't care whether you understand it or not. Actually, I don't necessarily understand it either, and I don't care about that. I was clear in what I said.

im trying to understand the logic behind it, because i find peoples various reasoning interesting. ive studied pretty much every religion there is for that reason

Malice_Mizer · #4 07-22-2014, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsblood1987 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im trying to understand the logic behind it, because i find peoples various reasoning interesting. ive studied pretty much every religion there is for that reason

That's interesting, because your questions are honestly pretty juvenile. If you believe that people adhere to religious systems and a belief in God simply to comfort themselves and avoid any liability for their own lives, then I don't think you've dug deep enough into the nature of human spirituality. Even the way you frame the questions betrays a shallow attempt at understanding.

For example the problem of pain is explicitly addressed and concretely satisfied in any orthodox Christian theology: God allows evil to exist to bring about a greater good, i.e. we are unable to view the entire "puzzle," and experience only a small piece, our own piece, of creation. Therefore, any judgment you make about the fairness or unfairness of existence is itself unfair, because you have no viewed existence as a completed whole. It's a teleological understanding of existence that is honestly supported now by science (now that science has abandoned the static-universe theory it slavish held onto until 50 years ago), which says that our universe has a beginning and will one day end. Until then-- until you're able to view creation as the mind that conceived it-- any analysis you make is flawed and incomplete.

Vyal · #5 07-22-2014, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's interesting, because your questions are honestly pretty juvenile. If you believe that people adhere to religious systems and a belief in God simply to comfort themselves and avoid any liability for their own lives, then I don't think you've dug deep enough into the nature of human spirituality. Even the way you frame the questions betrays a shallow attempt at understanding.

Archalen · #6 07-22-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's interesting, because your questions are honestly pretty juvenile. If you believe that people adhere to religious systems and a belief in God simply to comfort themselves and avoid any liability for their own lives, then I don't think you've dug deep enough into the nature of human spirituality. Even the way you frame the questions betrays a shallow attempt at understanding.

For example the problem of pain is explicitly addressed and concretely satisfied in any orthodox Christian theology: God allows evil to exist to bring about a greater good, i.e. we are unable to view the entire "puzzle," and experience only a small piece, our own piece, of creation. Therefore, any judgment you make about the fairness or unfairness of existence is itself unfair, because you have no viewed existence as a completed whole. It's a teleological understanding of existence that is honestly supported now by science (now that science has abandoned the static-universe theory it slavish held onto until 50 years ago), which says that our universe has a beginning and will one day end. Until then-- until you're able to view creation as the mind that conceived it-- any analysis you make is flawed and incomplete.

Existence absolutely is a puzzle, which is why when people ask me about the existence of God, I say "I don't know."

Dragonsblood1987 · #7 07-22-2014, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice_Mizer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's interesting, because your questions are honestly pretty juvenile. If you believe that people adhere to religious systems and a belief in God simply to comfort themselves and avoid any liability for their own lives, then I don't think you've dug deep enough into the nature of human spirituality. Even the way you frame the questions betrays a shallow attempt at understanding.

For example the problem of pain is explicitly addressed and concretely satisfied in any orthodox Christian theology: God allows evil to exist to bring about a greater good, i.e. we are unable to view the entire "puzzle," and experience only a small piece, our own piece, of creation. Therefore, any judgment you make about the fairness or unfairness of existence is itself unfair, because you have no viewed existence as a completed whole. It's a teleological understanding of existence that is honestly supported now by science (now that science has abandoned the static-universe theory it slavish held onto until 50 years ago), which says that our universe has a beginning and will one day end. Until then-- until you're able to view creation as the mind that conceived it-- any analysis you make is flawed and incomplete.

you say that asking if religion is followed for the sake of comfort, what is the ultimate goal of being spiritual? that isnt really a question with an objective answer. i wouldnt really say that judeo-christian religions are very spiritual, especially not in comparison with eastern religions.

eastern religions tend to explore spirituality as a means of achieving enlightenment. you are a soul, you have always been, just not always in your current physical form. everything that reality encompasses is bound in some way, thus making everything in it small parts of a whole. if you do good, you'll amass positive energy and go up a rung in the ladder when your physical form dies, being reborn a little bit closer to true enlightenment. or at least you'll have more means of becoming enlightened at your disposal. life and death are like the breath of the universe, theres a balance that is maintained, we're all part of a greater consciousness.

judeo christian religions however, are a bit more linear and black and white (though theyre the most frequently openly interpreted). god said "let there be light". bam. we're here. now that youre here, youve been gifted with free will. what you do with it is your choice, but if you dont do what god wants, he, the unconditionally loving creator, will punish you for ever with physical torture (although some offshoots of the big three have varying amounts of penance; its not always forever). if youre good and dont use the free will god gave you, you'll go to heaven, or some plane of positive energy to put it another way. in heaven, theres no pain, no hunger, everyones always happy you get to see dead loved ones again ect. if youre bad, youre barred from heaven, damned to hell or some negative plane where your only company is some chief embodiment of evil, and all the asshole that have ever existed and died before you.

it seems to me like spirituality doesnt play enough of a roll in christianity to even mention it, hence why i asked what i did.

fadetree · #8 07-22-2014, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsblood1987 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you say that asking if religion is followed for the sake of comfort, what is the ultimate goal of being spiritual? that isnt really a question with an objective answer. i wouldnt really say that judeo-christian religions are very spiritual, especially not in comparison with eastern religions.

eastern religions tend to explore spirituality as a means of achieving enlightenment. you are a soul, you have always been, just not always in your current physical form. everything that reality encompasses is bound in some way, thus making everything in it small parts of a whole. if you do good, you'll amass positive energy and go up a rung in the ladder when your physical form dies, being reborn a little bit closer to true enlightenment. or at least you'll have more means of becoming enlightened at your disposal. life and death are like the breath of the universe, theres a balance that is maintained, we're all part of a greater consciousness.

judeo christian religions however, are a bit more linear and black and white (though theyre the most frequently openly interpreted). god said "let there be light". bam. we're here. now that youre here, youve been gifted with free will. what you do with it is your choice, but if you dont do what god wants, he, the unconditionally loving creator, will punish you for ever with physical torture (although some offshoots of the big three have varying amounts of penance; its not always forever). if youre good and dont use the free will god gave you, you'll go to heaven, or some plane of positive energy to put it another way. in heaven, theres no pain, no hunger, everyones always happy you get to see dead loved ones again ect. if youre bad, youre barred from heaven, damned to hell or some negative plane where your only company is some chief embodiment of evil, and all the asshole that have ever existed and died before you.

it seems to me like spirituality doesnt play enough of a roll in christianity to even mention it, hence why i asked what i did.

I'm interested in what you think spirituality is. Do you think its some kind of learning or enlightenment process? The literal meaning of the word, of course, is 'dealing with spirits'.

You mention a bunch of stuff about Christian 'religion'. Its accurate enough according to popular opinion, but doesn't really have anything to do with actual Christianity. If you are a Christian, you are not bound by the old testament. You are not, in fact, bound by anything. Let me give you an alternate take :

In my christian circles, Sin is not a series of bad actions that God doesn't like, and Righteousness is not a bunch actions that he likes. Sin is an environment, and refers to the the fact that you have free will. The meaning of word for 'Sin' is basically 'apart from God', as in He's not directing everything all the time, which is another way of saying we have free will. He's not shooting down airplanes full of babies, we are.

Righteousness is not doing a bunch of good actions till you 'get good enough'. There is no good enough. The most super duper wonderful human you ever met is exactly as sinful as anyone else. The most despicable murderer is exactly as Righteous as anyone else. Hitler and Mother Teresa? Exactly the same from a sin standpoint. Those public Christians talking about how sinful one kind of person is over another? They are seriously mistaken.

Hell and eternal damnation? One way to look at it is that you may simply not recognise what you are being offered in the afterlife, and thus fail to accept it. Nobody sends you to hell, you just don't see heaven when it's in front of you. That applies to this life as well, I think. I personally do not buy the hellfire idea...JC mentioned some things in that regard but they were mostly metaphors for a 'really bad thing', which indeed it would be if heaven existed but you couldn't recognise it.

To me, Christianity means that
a) I believe in the historical Jesus. This is not unreasonable.
b) I think he was God's "son", avatar, representative, etc for us humans. This is unreasonable.
c) I accept the free gift that God extends through him. This is the only way to righteousness. Reasonable given (b) is accepted.
d) I try to be as much like him in my daily life as I can. Reasonable, even if you don't buy the God part he had some damn good suggestions.

Most of the rules that people go on and on about are really just Him trying to give us some clues about how to be happy. Breaking them is not any more sinful that not breaking them, its just usually stupid for practical reasons.

fadetree · #9 07-22-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsblood1987 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you say that asking if religion is followed for the sake of comfort, what is the ultimate goal of being spiritual? that isnt really a question with an objective answer. i wouldnt really say that judeo-christian religions are very spiritual, especially not in comparison with eastern religions.

eastern religions tend to explore spirituality as a means of achieving enlightenment. you are a soul, you have always been, just not always in your current physical form. everything that reality encompasses is bound in some way, thus making everything in it small parts of a whole. if you do good, you'll amass positive energy and go up a rung in the ladder when your physical form dies, being reborn a little bit closer to true enlightenment. or at least you'll have more means of becoming enlightened at your disposal. life and death are like the breath of the universe, theres a balance that is maintained, we're all part of a greater consciousness.

judeo christian religions however, are a bit more linear and black and white (though theyre the most frequently openly interpreted). god said "let there be light". bam. we're here. now that youre here, youve been gifted with free will. what you do with it is your choice, but if you dont do what god wants, he, the unconditionally loving creator, will punish you for ever with physical torture (although some offshoots of the big three have varying amounts of penance; its not always forever). if youre good and dont use the free will god gave you, you'll go to heaven, or some plane of positive energy to put it another way. in heaven, theres no pain, no hunger, everyones always happy you get to see dead loved ones again ect. if youre bad, youre barred from heaven, damned to hell or some negative plane where your only company is some chief embodiment of evil, and all the asshole that have ever existed and died before you.

it seems to me like spirituality doesnt play enough of a roll in christianity to even mention it, hence why i asked what i did.

I'm interested in what you think spirituality is. Do you think its some kind of learning or enlightenment process? The literal meaning of the word, of course, is 'dealing with spirits'.

You mention a bunch of stuff about Christian 'religion'. Its accurate enough according to popular opinion, but doesn't really have anything to do with actual Christianity. If you are a Christian, you are not bound by the old testament. You are not, in fact, bound by anything. Let me give you an alternate take :

In my christian circles, Sin is not a series of bad actions that God doesn't like, and Righteousness is not a bunch actions that he likes. Sin is an environment, and refers to the the fact that you have free will. The meaning of word for 'Sin' is basically 'apart from God', as in He's not directing everything all the time, which is another way of saying we have free will. He's not shooting down airplanes full of babies, we are.

Righteousness is not doing a bunch of good actions till you 'get good enough'. There is no good enough. The most super duper wonderful human you ever met is exactly as sinful as anyone else. The most despicable murderer is exactly as Righteous as anyone else. Hitler and Mother Teresa? Exactly the same from a sin standpoint. Those public Christians talking about how sinful one kind of person is over another? They are seriously mistaken.

Hell and eternal damnation? One way to look at it is that you may simply not recognise what you are being offered in the afterlife, and thus fail to accept it. Nobody sends you to hell, you just don't see heaven when it's in front of you. That applies to this life as well, I think. I personally do not buy the hellfire idea...JC mentioned some things in that regard but they were mostly metaphors for a 'really bad thing', which indeed it would be if heaven existed but you couldn't recognise it.

To me, Christianity means that
a) I believe in the historical Jesus. This is not unreasonable.
b) I think he was God's "son", avatar, representative, etc for us humans. This is unreasonable.
c) I accept the free gift that God extends through him. This is the only way to righteousness. Reasonable given (b) is accepted.
d) I try to be as much like him in my daily life as I can. Reasonable, even if you don't buy the God part he had some damn good suggestions.

Most of the rules that people go on and on about are really just Him trying to give us some clues about how to be happy. Breaking them is not any more sinful that not breaking them, its just usually stupid for practical reasons.

fadetree · #10 07-22-2014, 02:47 PM

I'll add that I wasn't talking about religion and which one is 'right'. I don't think God gives much of a crap about religion. Christianity itself doesn't make a very good religion, in the sense that religion, any religion, is about making deals with your deity, trading correct behavior for not being fried in the afterlife or getting beaten up by current life. Christianity has no such deals to make.