Game Mechanics: Rogue hide

[koros]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If hide helps you get behind without being seen already, what's the point of sneak having a positional mechanic? I think you guys are wanting hide/sneak to have the "behind the mob" functionality at all times (even when not behind).

Honestly, if Rogean played a rogue for as long as he says he did and during vanilla-Velious... I have to give him authority on the matter (well, I think he has it anyway obvi). He's not a content/mechanic twisting scummy. Except mabe overnerfing drains cuz of Salty hoopin'.





Remove item recharging, revert hoop nerf!

Sneaks positional mechanic is very important, in fact the skill is useless without it, other than letting rogues move when hidden.

Take a hypothetical room with 2 mobs facing each other. One sees invis, one does not. A rogue might be able to be invisible to both, by being in the rear arc of the see invis one, and having hide blocking the normal one. A non-rogue wouldn't be able to do this.

If rogue sneak/hide is not 100% at 60 something is wrong. Here's proof straight from Kendrick (Classic dev and official rogue advocate)



http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2857

"Faster Sneak Starting at 51st, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells. SoW sneaking, anyone?"

[Scrubosaur]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If hide helps you get behind without being seen already, what's the point of sneak having a positional mechanic? I think you guys are wanting hide/sneak to have the "behind the mob" functionality at all times (even when not behind).[/B]

If you don't see the difference please stop posting on the subject. Hide normally acts as an invisibility check vs a mob, and sneak always makes you indifferent to anything in the rear 180 degrees (you are sneaking, duh). Rogue is the only class that can sneak and hide at the same time as an ability. This ability is different than the normal sneak or hide that work independently as stated above. This ability is better than normal hide because it should make you invisible vs undead and many other mobs that normally see through invisibility spells or other classes hide ability. The sneak portion works the same as normal sneak; so even IF a mob sees though ROGUE hide but you are in the rear 180 degrees the mob will be indifferent.

[Shiftin]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If rogue sneak/hide is not 100% at 60 something is wrong. Here's proof straight from Kendrick (Classic dev and official rogue advocate)



http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2857

"Faster Sneak Starting at 51st, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells. SoW sneaking, anyone?"

This. Kanras told me in PMs this is governed by the client, so it's not something they can fix? I know lots of things previously governed by the client have been overridden and this one is pretty significant.

[Ele]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2865
Rogue FAQ; Posted August 2000; Last edited July 2001 (Velious Era)

2.4.2 What is the benefit of Sneak-Hide?
Using sneak and hide at the same time (Sneak-Hide) allows a rogue to move while invisible to most mobs and players! The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those that can cast "See Invisible". Unlike the spell "Invisibility", sneak-hide has unlimited duration until turned off (like Hide), a spell is cast on the rogue by a spellcaster/bard, or the rogue zones. Sneak-Hide also works against both Undead creatures and regular creatures. However, there is always a minute chance of any mob seeing through your Sneak-Hide and detecting you. Starting at 51st level, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells.

This skill is highly valued for maneuvering in dungeons, scouting or corpse recovery.

[Scrubosaur]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/s...ead.php?t=2865
Rogue FAQ; Posted August 2000; Last edited July 2001 (Velious Era)

2.4.2 What is the benefit of Sneak-Hide?
Using sneak and hide at the same time (Sneak-Hide) allows a rogue to move while invisible to most mobs and players! The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those that can cast "See Invisible". Unlike the spell "Invisibility", sneak-hide has unlimited duration until turned off (like Hide), a spell is cast on the rogue by a spellcaster/bard, or the rogue zones. Sneak-Hide also works against both Undead creatures and regular creatures. However, there is always a minute chance of any mob seeing through your Sneak-Hide and detecting you. Starting at 51st level, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells.

This skill is highly valued for maneuvering in dungeons, scouting or corpse recovery.

As to the bold parts - The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those that can cast "See Invisible" - it should most likely read - The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those PLAYERS that can cast "See Invisible" - as I am unaware of any mobs that purposely cast see invis on other mobs (but possible). You also should have put in bold - a minute chance - as that is the exact opposite of what is on p99.

[Nirgon]

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

[Velerin]

I don't think he's saying that. Think all the rogues are just saying the same thing. There are two levels of see invis in mobs, reg see invis and see invis+hide. There were definitely see invis mobs that didn't see hide. Sol B kobolds for instance did not see hide, but sol B bats saw both. Safehouse was one of the best EQ resources back in the day and I trust most the stuff on there.
I don't even play a rogue here but I feel bad for the ones that do after last nerf.

[Scrubosaur]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

This guy. He must have had some pull with the devs back in the day. Now it seems like he gets his jollies off of trolling the server with undocumented tweaks he would like to see because he either "he knows someone" or he "remembers how it should be". If you don't believe me take a look at his channeling thread, necro recourse thread, or his comments in this thread.

[Rhambuk]

[/QUOTE=Ele;1538310] Unlike the spell "Invisibility", sneak-hide has unlimited duration until turned off (like Hide), a spell is cast on the rogue by a spellcaster/bard, or the rogue zones.[QUOTE]

I hated this

[Nirgon]

Originally Posted by Scrubosaur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This guy. He must have had some pull with the devs back in the day. Now it seems like he gets his jollies off of trolling the server with undocumented tweaks he would like to see because he either "he knows someone" or he "remembers how it should be". If you don't believe me take a look at his channeling thread, necro recourse thread, or his comments in this thread.

The funny thing is, when it was tested on eqmac or in untouched areas on Live... it is discovered I'm almost always right [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. I'm right about necro recourse and channeling too... as channeling will eventually be investigated and fixed by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

You aren't going to get shroud of stealth level hide/sneak here, its not classic. Be behind the mob or be seen.

Honestly I did look high and low and on safehouse/wayback machine. Truthfully, I would want it to be implemented correctly, even if I was wrong about my assertion and I'd own up to being wrong.

But the truth is, there would be loads of information saying "just have a rogue sneak through to check if the mob is up as it cannot be tracked from the zone in" or "have a rogue pull everyone's corpses after a wipe"... but as it turns out... all the pulling of corpses is being done by monks (hi2u 0 cast time FD) or necro coffins in raid zones and all the checking for mobs being up is done by trackers. If rogues were able to very easily just hide/sneak in front of things that could ordinarily see invisible and get past them, there'd be MUCH more data about it. Just like how I said there should be much more about necros being able to dispel the recourse from their healing... it just wasn't possible.

My evidence is based on the rogue epic part of hate, which has the most information. It basically says be careful because some things can see you and some can't, same as invis/itu combo.

Again, I'd rather the classic implementation goes in and I'm wrong.. than it doesn't and I can pretend to be right. There's always a strong following of people coming after my posts when the change inconveniences them. But as we all well know, this isn't the making friends section, this is the make it classic section.

Oh, and it is a fix not a nerf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].