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  #1  
Old 01-20-2015, 02:29 PM
haksum haksum is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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According to the survey, which analyzed responses from 73 men in college, 31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed….“The No. 1 point is there are people that will say they would force a woman to have sex but would deny they would rape a woman,” Sarah R. Edwards, an assistant professor of counseling psychology at the University of North Dakota and the lead researcher for the study, told Newsweek.
Granted that's just college students from one college, but we're talking about a third of them! And this isn't some old survey from the 50's, it just happened!

It's hard to argue there's not some "rape culture" in America when a third of a college student body are ok with rape when if they don't get caught.

Do you overgeneralize everything this grossly? That's one small ass student body for a college (assuming they are all from the same college because it doesn't state they were) and sounds like a terrible survey. Anything that starts with only 'according to a survey' is usually bullshit and shouldn't be used as evidence for anything. MAYBE if it started out with 'according to a survey (written/spoken?) conducted in 2014 on 73 male students at so-and-so university between the ages of x-y in details, details, details.." but then still, who knows who selected these candidates? For all we know they meticulously picked the muscle head steroid abusing future wife beaters of America club at a some southern I fuck my sister because she's easy hick trade school to fit their agenda.

This could also be easily be torn apart on the usage of the word 'force' as well on account of its ambiguity. Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club). How many nerds don't think that they would 'force' Scarjo to sleep with them if they had Charm or Puppet Strings? Some probably wouldn't do it in the end but it sure sounded like a fun idea when they were doing this survey.


And if whatever academic institution you attended taught that Wikipedia is an acceptable source for anything, you need to call and demand a refund. I'm sure there's other terrible references, but this one just caught my eye while skimming.

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Originally Posted by Sidelle
I'm used to people here questioning this for many reasons -- I've never worried much about expressing my opinions (here or anywhere else) - no matter how unpopular it is or how many insults I get in reply , I have a rather dominant personality, a fairly vulgar sense of humor, and I enjoy the company of p99 forum nerds and playing EverQuest -- but I really am, in fact, a girl (also a wife and mother of one child), who is more ladylike in real life than people here might expect. Also, there are more of us hanging around here than you guys know.

Anyway. I hope that helps you weigh my opinion on modern feminism in the proper context.
Personality aside, I was just asking for contextual reference. Someone that has been a woman, and treated as a woman, their entire life will have different factors in the development of their view than someone raised as a boy until their early teens when they decided to embrace their femininity.
  #2  
Old 01-20-2015, 02:56 PM
Formshifter Formshifter is offline
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Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club).
Get ready to fail your sense motive checks, ladies, I've been stacking diplomacy on my rogue since lvl 1 ^.~
  #3  
Old 01-20-2015, 03:23 PM
loramin loramin is online now
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Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Do you overgeneralize everything this grossly? That's one small ass student body for a college (assuming they are all from the same college because it doesn't state they were) and sounds like a terrible survey. Anything that starts with only 'according to a survey' is usually bullshit and shouldn't be used as evidence for anything. MAYBE if it started out with 'according to a survey (written/spoken?) conducted in 2014 on 73 male students at so-and-so university between the ages of x-y in details, details, details.." but then still, who knows who selected these candidates? For all we know they meticulously picked the muscle head steroid abusing future wife beaters of America club at a some southern I fuck my sister because she's easy hick trade school to fit their agenda.

This could also be easily be torn apart on the usage of the word 'force' as well on account of its ambiguity. Is it physical force, persuasive force, or magical force?(I don't know if they surveyed the college D&D club). How many nerds don't think that they would 'force' Scarjo to sleep with them if they had Charm or Puppet Strings? Some probably wouldn't do it in the end but it sure sounded like a fun idea when they were doing this survey.
Ok, I can understand the "I can't deal with the message so I'll shoot the messenger" vibe, but "magic force"? I'm pretty certain when men said they'd force women to have sex they weren't talking about Puppet Strings [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But ok fine, let's leave that survey out since you dislike it so much. Here's a fact that's backed up by several different studies (so you can't just attack one in particular): 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (depending on the study) women in America will experience a rape or attempted rape and report it in the study. Obviously we can't even measure the ones that don't report it, although many women don't.

Now look, it takes A LOT of men to rape 1 in 5/6 women in America (even if some of those men commit multiple rapes). It's hard for me to see how there could be that many men willing and able to commit rape if there's absolutely no "rape culture" in America.

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Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
And if whatever academic institution you attended taught that Wikipedia is an acceptable source for anything, you need to call and demand a refund. I'm sure there's other terrible references, but this one just caught my eye while skimming.
Again with the shooting the messenger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Look you didn't even need to go to the wikipedia page itself, just read the part I quoted:

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Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.
We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.
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  #4  
Old 01-20-2015, 03:32 PM
Formshifter Formshifter is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.
But how can you possibly trust the oppressive patriarchy?? Maybe their study was intended to convey false information to keep feminists in the dark as a systemic way of oppressing them?!
  #5  
Old 01-20-2015, 06:39 PM
haksum haksum is offline
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I take issue with a lot of this stuff, and I may be shooting the messenger, but if the messenger is disseminating poor quality information, it's better to stop them sooner than later. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Ok, I can understand the "I can't deal with the message so I'll shoot the messenger" vibe, but "magic force"? I'm pretty certain when men said they'd force women to have sex they weren't talking about Puppet Strings [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
My point is that you have to know your pooled participants - which we don't - and that is easily manipulated. I had to do surveys in college as well I can tell you I wasn't truthful on all of them and I doubt I'm the only one especially when you're young and filling them out around your friends. 'Force' being ill-defined makes it ambiguous and can mean any form of force that your brain can think up. Most people don't take random surveys as serious as college entrance exams if they even take them at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
...
...
...

Again with the shooting the messenger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Look you didn't even need to go to the wikipedia page itself, just read the part I quoted:

Quote:
Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.
We're not talking about some bogus study that some idiot pasted in to Wikipedia without any scrutiny, we're talking about a study conducted by an econ (not women's studies!) professor at Yale and the US Secretary of Commerce. I don't know how much more "official" of a study I can find for you.
Is this a history lesson or are we talking current events? It's best to just stay away from Wikipedia as a reference. There are plenty of other academic journals and government reports available that are more 'reliable' and are open with their methods. Basing an opinion on on something like this from Wikipedia information is not the way to go.

As for the 1 in 6 number, I'm assuming you're referring to the 1995-1996 'Violence against women survey' published by the National Institute of Justice in 1998. There is a lot of interesting information there and some of it seems legit. I was impressed with the directness of the questions until I got to the last one in the 'rape' section. 'Has anyone, male of female, ever attempted to make you have vaginal, oral, or anal sex against your will but intercourse or penetration did not occur?' This is a padding question and should not be included in the 'rape' survey as worded but being that this was a politically motivated study, there's no way you couldn't have it in there because then your numbers wouldn't be as strong. This is one of those questions that pretty much every girl can answer with a 'yes' and they were counted as 'rape victims' in the study. The other questions were VERY direct and unambiguous. Remember that girl you made out with in middle school that you totally thought you were going to finger but then when you slipped your hand down her panties she pulled you away and you were like, come on baby, and she said no and you walked away with blue balls? Yeah, that was attempted rape, or at least would be qualified as such by this study.

I'm not saying rape doesn't happen and that it's not something boys and girls shouldn't both be educated about. What I don't like is the poor statistics that get thrown around because of their sensational response.

Interesting fact from the survey: You are almost twice as likely to be the recipient of rape if you are an American Indian or Alaskan Native than if you're black. Check the facts and see what I did there.

tl;dr: I feel sorry for the next generation of kids. Can't make a gun shape with your hand (or out of toast for that matter) and can't get any action. <3 loramin for being a good sport.
  #6  
Old 01-20-2015, 07:23 PM
2pacalypse 2pacalypse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haksum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I take issue with a lot of this stuff, and I may be shooting the messenger, but if the messenger is disseminating poor quality information, it's better to stop them sooner than later. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]



My point is that you have to know your pooled participants - which we don't - and that is easily manipulated. I had to do surveys in college as well I can tell you I wasn't truthful on all of them and I doubt I'm the only one especially when you're young and filling them out around your friends. 'Force' being ill-defined makes it ambiguous and can mean any form of force that your brain can think up. Most people don't take random surveys as serious as college entrance exams if they even take them at all.




Is this a history lesson or are we talking current events? It's best to just stay away from Wikipedia as a reference. There are plenty of other academic journals and government reports available that are more 'reliable' and are open with their methods. Basing an opinion on on something like this from Wikipedia information is not the way to go.

As for the 1 in 6 number, I'm assuming you're referring to the 1995-1996 'Violence against women survey' published by the National Institute of Justice in 1998. There is a lot of interesting information there and some of it seems legit. I was impressed with the directness of the questions until I got to the last one in the 'rape' section. 'Has anyone, male of female, ever attempted to make you have vaginal, oral, or anal sex against your will but intercourse or penetration did not occur?' This is a padding question and should not be included in the 'rape' survey as worded but being that this was a politically motivated study, there's no way you couldn't have it in there because then your numbers wouldn't be as strong. This is one of those questions that pretty much every girl can answer with a 'yes' and they were counted as 'rape victims' in the study. The other questions were VERY direct and unambiguous. Remember that girl you made out with in middle school that you totally thought you were going to finger but then when you slipped your hand down her panties she pulled you away and you were like, come on baby, and she said no and you walked away with blue balls? Yeah, that was attempted rape, or at least would be qualified as such by this study.

I'm not saying rape doesn't happen and that it's not something boys and girls shouldn't both be educated about. What I don't like is the poor statistics that get thrown around because of their sensational response.

Interesting fact from the survey: You are almost twice as likely to be the recipient of rape if you are an American Indian or Alaskan Native than if you're black. Check the facts and see what I did there.

tl;dr: I feel sorry for the next generation of kids. Can't make a gun shape with your hand (or out of toast for that matter) and can't get any action. <3 loramin for being a good sport.
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