Minyin Bison

[M.Bison]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bison, if market forces aren't enough to stop businesses in Somalia (where there's essentially no government) from selling expired food to people for greater profits, how do you expect the free market to improve the quality "private defense agencies"?

Simply put, in US we have significantly more options when it comes to food. Smaller countries, like Somalia, arent as lucky in that respect. If someone is trying to sell expired food in the US, you just dont buy it. The country is large enough to support several sources of farm land/livestock.

Free market would improve the quality of PDAs by answering directly to its customers. You pay for the protection law enforcement provides you already. The only difference between Friedman's model and today's standard is that you would get to choose who provides that service for you, as opposed to that money being involuntarily taken out of your paycheck every week. Another way it would improve quality is a PDA would have to provide you with service-provider financial statements. So when you notice that your PDA just spent $100,000 on something you dont feel is necessary to your protection you can drop their service and seek another PDA that fits your needs more accordingly. Extrapolating that, if enough people notice this unnecessary spending from a specific PDA and in turn drop their service. That PDA will be forced to either change its spending habits or face bankruptcy.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by M.Bison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Simply put, in US we have significantly more options when it comes to food. Smaller countries, like Somalia, arent as lucky in that respect. If someone is trying to sell expired food in the US, you just dont buy it. The country is large enough to support several sources of farm land/livestock.

Free market would improve the quality of PDAs by answering directly to its customers. You pay for the protection law enforcement provides you already. The only difference between Friedman's model and today's standard is that you would get to choose who provides that service for you, as opposed to that money being involuntarily taken out of your paycheck every week. Another way it would improve quality is a PDA would have to provide you with service-provider financial statements. So when you notice that your PDA just spent $100,000 on something you dont feel is necessary to your protection you can drop their service and seek another PDA that fits your needs more accordingly. Extrapolating that, if enough people notice this unnecessary spending from a specific PDA and in turn drop their service. That PDA will be forced to either change its spending habits or face bankruptcy.

Don't debate the proles Bison, them pickin's is easy. I'm here for you baby.

So the problem with your idea of quality improvement in PDA's is that people actually suffer in the interim while they sort the details and get shit wrong trying to bust a profit. If YOUR grandmother was raped in her bathroom while the cops were busy responding to a cost-benefit analysis memo, I think you'd be pretty pissed off.

Also, you're talking post-America here dude, so don't bring "american exceptionalism" into this debate please. I know that other dude that posted set you up on your soapbox, but let's keep this debate grounded? Propaganda is for the Weak mind Bison, you're better than that.

[Hasbinbad]

TOPIC:

Originally Posted by M.Bison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If there is patronage to be had, i can promise you that some business is going to want it. In the link i provided you it talks about how litigation would be handled in a third-party, pre-determined court. Ultimately any decision the court makes will involve some sort of monetary reimbursement from those found guilty. (for costs to the court/PDA/persons involved.) Let's imagine that citizen z cannot afford to employ a PDAx. PDAx recognizing that citizenZ cannot afford their services but still wanting their business would offer them some sort of "cut rate"(i use that term loosely) plan, in which they still receive all the benefits that the average customer gets, just at a lower rate. But in the event that any court rules in citizenZ's favor involving monetary reimbursement, PDAx usually only taking 15%, instead gets 60% in exchange for that "cut rate" payment.

Anarcho-Capitalism at its core is just a free market society. There wouldnt be war and mayhem as some people might want you to believe, simply because war and mayhem are not cost efficient. All aspects of society would be handled in a business like method of cost/benefit. Im not saying the models are perfect by any stretch of the imagination, just another way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, I figured you would say something like this, and can respect the idea, but we're not talking about a rash group of criminal gunslingers out of a 1960's western here. I mean organized crime. Playing the fringes. Taking what's yours in not only small snatch&dash jobs and protection threats, but in highly sophisticated technologically founded operations. Global crime man. We're in a different age now. A truly successful illegitimate organization needs to diversify their crime. You need the FBI against that shit man. The CIA and shit. Honestly I hate trusting them with that much power, but then I think of how bad the world would really be without Interpol. The russians are already paying the nigerians to phish your fucking account man, and dumpster diving hackers can get it if you're "too smart" to enter your information into that popup.. How bad would it be if there was no global effort to get rid of them? Doesn't that require a significant concentration of power in the form of resources, information, and secrecy? Coz lemme tell you dude.. I could, with a friend or four of like mind, set up a pretty decent operation to take what is yours if I didn't think the FBI would have my ass in a sling. ..and I'm really not very educated or even clever as far as being devious goes.

Seriously tho, without some form of "big police," crime would simply take over. ..and if you're going to have the CIA, don't you need checks and balances? Doesn't this lead us back to a large form of government?



#1 why do you bring up the state when you mention a consolidation of power? I know you like corporations, but let's be fucking honest here: the wealthy really have more power than any government in the world. The world is changed by corporations man, and wildly and without thought of the future at that. Just look at pharmacorps.. Even this huge government we have is BARELY enough to constrain them from killing thousands of people with untested drugs (even with what we have, drugs get released and kill people due to lack of government power to enforce longer term testing). If McDonalds wasn't constrained by government, don't you think they would advertise children in candy clouds eating 4 big macs at a sitting? Tobacco would be teaching kids how cool smoking looks and luring them with penis-faced ungulates. You name it, and I bet it would be elementary to show how corporations exert more influence than government.

#2 you skipped the question I asked about your neighbor. Let's say you are a customer of Hasbin Bad's Police Services. Local criminals have tried to rob you before, but 6 squad cars showed up bristling assault rifles and bullhorns before they knew what happened. Your neighbors however, residents of the area for 45 years, are known to be poor monetarily but also known to own many antiques. Are they not an obvious target? If they are not customers of a PDA due to monetary constraints, and they got robbed at gunpoint, they would have nobody to call? No recourse? That doesn't sound like any place I'd like to live.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Man I'm talking dirt shit retired without benefits poor. Old people and shit. You expect them to pay for police? What if they can't even afford the cut rate?

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about the younger guy who's mom goes to the hospital.. He makes good money but he is stuck paying his mom's hospital bill (hospitals are for-profit in your world right?). Now he can't even afford a cellphone much less police insurance..

BISON!!!

[M.Bison]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't debate the proles Bison, them pickin's is easy. I'm here for you baby.

So the problem with your idea of quality improvement in PDA's is that people actually suffer in the interim while they sort the details and get shit wrong trying to bust a profit. If YOUR grandmother was raped in her bathroom while the cops were busy responding to a cost-benefit analysis memo, I think you'd be pretty pissed off.

Also, you're talking post-America here dude, so don't bring "american exceptionalism" into this debate please. I know that other dude that posted set you up on your soapbox, but let's keep this debate grounded? Propaganda is for the Weak mind Bison, you're better than that.

Agreed.

I also agree with you on the fact that any shift to an AC model would cause complete chaos until all the hiccups were hammered out. To me personally (and im sure not all of you) i would view this as a temporary necessary evil if it meant no 'one'(or one group) had a monopoly on a so-called "legal" use of violence.

Once again, just my personal views.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by M.Bison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed.

I also agree with you on the fact that any shift to an AC model would cause complete chaos until all the hiccups were hammered out. To me personally (and im sure not all of you) i would view this as a temporary necessary evil if it meant no 'one'(or one group) had a monopoly on a so-called "legal" use of violence.

Once again, just my personal views.

Well if you can stand up and say that your grandmother being raped by a large group of thugs with AIDs is a necessary evil, then I can't really debate you. For me, some things are unacceptable.

You paint a picture of a nightmare world. The wild west + global criminalization, and the ready availability of weapons of mass destruction. Would there be any humanity left when the hiccups were hammered out?

You never did answer about global criminals. Would there be some kind of international union of PDA's which shared information, resources, and boundries? Resources are obviously assets, but so is information and land right? If they all share, isn't that socialism (lol)?

One last nitpick about your free market police system. CitizenA (rich) would have to have a reasonable expectation that CitizenB (poor) will eventually win some form of monetary damages. Since petty and violent criminals are presumably more often motivated by economic, rather than other factors, wouldn't it stand to reason that those individuals who would owe damages are also those least likely to be able to pay them? Why would CitizenA plop down 5% for his neighbor if he didn't think CitizenB would ever actually see the check which theoretically exists? Wouldn't that be economically unsound, or is that part of an "economic good?" At what point does it quit becoming an economic good? At your counties border? At the end of the state? The country? What about the people in the in-betweens? Fuck em? That seems to be OK with you..

*shiver*

Scary that people who actually have a lot of the views you've espoused here are coming into some modicum of power in the US Govt. right now.

SCARY SHIT MAN

Personally, I like roads being public. I like public school. I like not having to pay my firemen to protect my home. I like the police when they aren't being cunts. I like knowing that some areas of the place where I live have been set aside for wildlife. I like the fact that the things that I eat and take for headaches are mostly safe. Do I like the way the US Govt. is right now? Fucking no, but I sure like those things. I think we could learn a lot from other governments who are doing quite well with socialist democracies. I think we could learn a lot from ourselves in the late 1940's and the 1950's. The greatest period of innovation and progress in this nation was during the era of some of the highest mean tax percentages this country has ever known. Sure, a very few people were able to make that ALL ABOUT THEM with their corporations and their dividends, but tell me, did we go to the moon because of dividends? Did we build the freeway system because of dividends? Well, yes we did, but it's because Uncle Sam got his fucking cut. Uncle Sam gives you a Constitution, a Bill of fucking Rights, fresh cross country blacktop so you can cruise your big block, the best military force the world has ever known by far, a fresh gallon of milk for around $2.50, and you cut him out of the fucking deal? Are you kidding me?

My folks had a better deal.

Rednecks are ruining this fucking country.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by M.Bison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Simply put, in US we have significantly more options when it comes to food. Smaller countries, like Somalia, arent as lucky in that respect. If someone is trying to sell expired food in the US, you just dont buy it. The country is large enough to support several sources of farm land/livestock.

Woah. This is really not an adequate response. Expired food isn't sold in Somalia just because of a scarcity of food (otherwise it would have been bought before it expired, no?). It's sold (a) because people can get away with not labeling food as expired, since there's no government to enforce such standards, and (b) because selling expired food yields more profits for the business selling it. Market forces aren't going to stop a consumer from buying expired food and getting sick because they have no way of directly verifying that the food was expired, and no way of holding businesses accountable when they transgress these standards anyway. Also, since it's Pareto better (in terms of profits) for all of the entities selling food to sell expired food when they can get away with it, no one is going to take advantage of the market by selling non-expired food.

So far you've only given shallow theoretical reasons for why the market solves, but you haven't given any examples in the real world. Somalia is an example in the real world.

[Nakara]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Somalia is an example in the real world.

Somalia was also in the midst of a full blown civil war.

[Nakara]

Well they still are

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Nakara [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Somalia was also in the midst of a full blown civil war.

Well they still are

This explains why they have no government (no monopoly on force etc.) but not why they have a free market that doesn't solve. The cause of why they have no functional government is neither here nor there. I'm just not sure how your post engages with mine but maybe I just misunderstand what you're getting at..?

[Hasbinbad]

What about the younger guy who's mom goes to the hospital.. He makes good money but he is stuck paying his mom's hospital bill (hospitals are for-profit in your world right?). Now he can't even afford a cellphone much less police insurance..